Diana Winston
Podcast Transcript Season 1 Episode 10
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Liz Goldwyn: Hello. Welcome to The Sex Ed. I'm your host, Liz Goldwyn, founder of thesexed.com, your number one source for sex, health and consciousness education.
Today, my guest is Diana Winston, director of mindfulness education at UCLA's Mindful Awareness Research Center, otherwise known as MARC. MARC's mission is to foster mindful awareness across the lifespan of humanity through education and research in order to promote wellbeing and a more compassionate society. I met Diana at the Hammer Museum in Los Angeles, where she leads a free weekly guided meditation.
On this episode, Diana and I discuss what exactly mindfulness is, practical ways to integrate it into your daily routine, how to have more conscious sex, and she even leads me in a guided meditation, which you can follow along with.
Liz Goldwyn: What is mindfulness?
Diana Winston: The way I define mindfulness is paying attention to our present moment experiences with openness and curiosity and a willingness to be with what is. So it's really about living in the present moment, not lost in the past, not lost in the future, which is typically where our minds go. It's also where a lot of anxiety lies and a lot of grief, ruminations, fear. It often tends to be when our mind is going back and forth between the past and the future. Sometimes we're in the present moment, but we're often in the present moment wishing it were a different present moment, right? So mindfulness is this invitation to right here and right now.
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah, I've actually heard a lot of psychologists talk about fear being thinking about the future and anxiety thinking about the past, or vice versa.
Diana Winston: Well, yeah, I mean, if our minds are going into the future, they're usually going into worst case scenarios, catastrophizing, "Oh, this is going to happen," and so that can lead to a lot of anxiety. And then typically, I mean, you can have anxiety about the past or about the future, but typically when people go into the past, it's a lot of grief, ruminations, regret, wishing people had done things differently, so that can often lead to depressive thinking, but also anxiety.
Liz Goldwyn: How do you stop yourself? (Both laugh)
Diana Winston: That's the magic trick. Mindfulness, it doesn't stop the thoughts from arising, okay? When you learn how to practice mindfulness. And so it takes time to practice it, to just get the skill under your belt before you can begin to apply it to really intense things like difficult thoughts. But once you do learn how to do it, it's not about getting rid of the thoughts, it's about recognizing the thoughts and not getting caught up in the thoughts and not necessarily believing everything you think, and then having an alternative, which is to come back into the present moment.
Because in the present moment, oftentimes, things are okay, they're just neutral. It's the fear and the worry and the imagination that's causing the problem, as opposed to the reality of, okay, at the moment, I'm just here and now.
Liz Goldwyn: I've heard also people talk about grounding techniques when you get anxious or depressed about the future or the past, things like feeling your feet on the floor, being in your body. Is that part of mindfulness?
Diana Winston: Yeah, those are great techniques and they are connected to mindfulness in the sense that if your mind is worried about something and you remember to come into your body and feel your feet on the floor or your legs on the chair or whatever it is, that's happening right now in the moment. You're being mindful of the present moment. You're open, curious, you're connected to the present moment experience and it can help you feel really grounded, right? It can bring you back into your body, out of the fears and worry and into the present moment.
Liz Goldwyn: Like at this moment, I'm okay.
Diana Winston: Yeah. At the moment, okay. At the moment, what do my feet feel like? Well, there's warmth and hardness and pressure and, "Huh, okay." And sometimes when we just settled down-- like oftentimes humans tend to live a lot in their brain activity, right? There's a great James Joyce quote. He said, "Mr. Duffy lived at a short distance from his body," right? And so people tend to do that. And so when we can get ourselves back into our bodies, we can, not everybody, but we can often find a sense of safety, refuge, connection in our bodies.
Liz Goldwyn: So should we be learning from animals? Do animals live more in their bodies than their minds?
Diana Winston: Well, it's interesting. When an animal is threatened, what do they do? There's the freeze, fight or flight response, but they often, like an animal is threatened and they shake it out, and then they kind of come back into the moment, whereas humans sit there and worry about it for the next 20 years.
Liz Goldwyn: How can we be mindful? How can we practice mindfulness in our daily life and our daily routine?
Diana Winston: So my recommendation is that people learn a basic mindfulness practice. I usually start people off with just five minutes a day because I think people, everybody has five minutes in their day they can meditate. I don't care if you have a thousand children or something, you can always meditate. People have time for five minutes.
Liz Goldwyn: And you a daughter?
Diana Winston: I don't have a thousand children. I have one. I have a seven-year-old. So having a daily practice when people, either when they wake up or before bed or when they come home from work or school or whatever it is, and just taking some time to be connected to their breathing, and when their attention wanders away, come back to their breath. So this is a practice that they'll develop over time that'll then give them tools to be present in the midst of daily life.
So once you know the principles of mindfulness, you can do it at any moment. You can practice mindfulness while you're driving, not closing your eyes of course, but noticing your hand on the steering wheel, noticing your feet on the ground. You can practice it with an activity, washing the dishes mindfully. When you're stressed out, you can practice mindfulness by, like you were talking about, getting grounded, coming back into your body and noticing that your thoughts have gotten out of control. So there's many, many ways of bringing mindfulness into your day.
Liz Goldwyn: What about being mindful while we're eating?
Diana Winston: It's a great one. Yeah, mindful eating is a terrific practice. And oftentimes when I practice it, I just start by looking at the food and really thinking about where the food came from. Because usually with our food, we just think it appeared magically at the supermarket, but, you know, there's obviously a whole history about it. So for me, it's helpful to reflect on where the farmers and the animals and the plants and all of the things connected, and that can often evoke a sense of connection or gratitude.
And then from there, if I'm doing mindful eating, what I would do is just eat slowly and really savoring each bite and tasting everything and noticing all of the activity in my mouth and also what's happening in my mind. Am I spacing out or can I be present with it? And I can do one bite. I can do an entire meal. It just depends on what people have time for.
Liz Goldwyn: So being mindful is slightly the opposite of instant gratification?
Diana Winston: (Laughs) You might be instantly gratified to know that you're in the present moment, but yeah, it's not about like (snaps) get to the next experience to make yourself happy. It's more about the appreciation of things as they are. And sometimes life is not some big high. Oftentimes it's not THAT. It's usually quite either neutral or it has its ups and downs. But if we can have more appreciation for life as it really is, then there's true happiness.
Liz Goldwyn: What about mindful sex?
Diana Winston: Again, it's an area. Any area of our life we can bring mindfulness to. So just as I'm saying you can bring mindfulness to washing the dishes or you were talking about eating, we can bring these qualities of openness and curiosity and willingness to be with what is in the midst of any activity.
So in the midst of sex, one can be doing your best to really be present to all of the sensations that are happening in your body. There's so much to notice to be really sensitive to your emotional life so that you're not overriding your emotions, or if there's fear arising, that you give it space and you bring the mindfulness to the actual experiences of what is happening in the moment.
And also, it's really helpful for, you know, a lot of people's minds wander off when you're having sex, right? There's so many other things people are thinking about.
Liz Goldwyn: Especially for women.
Diana Winston: Oh yeah, of course. And so, "Well, okay, I'm not present anymore. Let's come back." And so you can apply the same techniques of being mindful no matter what it is you're doing.
Liz Goldwyn: So meditating during sex?
Diana Winston: Why not? (Both laugh)
Liz Goldwyn: And maybe being more mindful before having sex. Maybe being more mindful of the reasons why you're having sex or who you're having sex with.
Diana Winston: Absolutely, being sensitive to yourself, being tuned into yourself, and then being aware in the midst. I mean, people check out a lot in sex. So how do we find a way to check in? Knowing the tools of mindfulness is a particular tool that can help us do that.
The other thing I was going to say, just related to it, is there's a lot of practices that we teach here at MARC called relational mindfulness. And what that means, it's practices that you can use while you're with another person and that can lead to sex and it can actually enhance it because if you're really connected to another person because you've really deeply listened to them and spoken with authenticity while being connected to yourself, connected to them, it's absolutely going to affect whatever you do in the relationship.
Liz Goldwyn: You addressed a lot of people say, "Well, I just don't have the time to meditate," and you were saying, "Well, you can start with five minutes a day." And what I love, especially about the free, let me repeat that word, free online guided meditations at ucla.marc.edu is that there is meditations that are two minutes or three minutes, five minutes, seven minutes, nine minutes. But what about people who are afraid to meditate or say they don't know how to meditate or the whole idea of meditation just stresses them out?
Diana Winston: We wouldn't want to do something that was going to make you more stressed out. And, I mean, typically it's the kind of thing people have to find their way. I don't think it's for everybody. I mean, not every medicine is for everyone and meditation practice isn't necessarily for everyone.
If they're scared by it, but they're intrigued then, and they want to give it a try, that's another thing. And then it's just, they can do it in short segments, like just do one or two minutes. There's other things than just sitting still. There's standing meditation, there's walking meditation, there's movement, physical body movement based meditative practices. So those might be a doorway into it for other people.
Some people don't like to be alone with their mind. They don't want to sit there and just listen to these voices because it can feel overwhelming or scary. So there are practices that cultivate kindness and compassion where you repeat words, “May you be happy, may you be peaceful,” so there are other types of practices that may be a doorway in for somebody.
Liz Goldwyn: And how is it different than-- because there's a lot of different styles of meditation. Obviously there's Buddhist meditation and transcendental meditation. How does this style of meditation differ from those?
Diana Winston: There's hundreds of meditation types. So if you think of meditations like a big category such sports, sports is huge. There's hundreds of sports. I don't know if there are hundreds of meditations, but there's many, many. So meditation's a big category. You mentioned a few.
Mindfulness is just a particular meditation that these days has gotten very popular, so people are quite interested in it. How mindfulness differs, I mean, each meditation has a different goal. So it's a little hard to say because I would have to compare it to many different types, but the kind of characteristics that one can find in mindfulness is it cultivates this quality of presence. It's something that you can do throughout the day. So some meditations require a very silent room and you can only do it, you know, under very specific conditions. Mindfulness can be done anywhere at any time. Mindfulness leads to quite a lot of insight, which is incredible. Not that other meditations can't, but we learn a lot about ourselves.
So they all have different goals and you just sort of pick the one that's going to work for you.
Liz Goldwyn: And how many times a day do you have to do it?
Diana Winston: It's basically what you're going to do. So you don't have to do it any amount of time. You know, as I said, I start people off with five minutes because I feel like that's doable. And then I like people to increase over time to up to 15 to 20 minutes. I think between 20 minutes and a half an hour is really a nice amount of time per day. Some schools of meditation want you to do it a couple of times a day. I just say whatever is going to work. Because if it's not going to work in your life, you're not going to do it. So that's the most important thing for me.
And then, there are people who are drawn to more and more. So it's really interesting when somebody gets, you know they get the meditation bug and they want to keep going with it, and then there's opportunities for that.
So one of the things that we teach here at UCLA, we have day-long retreats so you can practice meditation for the day, or we offer weekend retreats, or you can go to a center and do a week or a couple of weeks.
And so, you have to follow what your heart is, what your life is like, and there's always options for everyone.
Liz Goldwyn: And you've practiced a lot of different styles of meditation, right? I read that you spent a year as a Buddhist nun.
Diana Winston: I did. I mean, I was practicing mindfulness during that year. So I've done a lot of styles of meditation, but my primary practice is mindfulness. I originally learned it in a Buddhist context, but now teach it in a way that's entirely secular. And I did live, yes, in a monastery for a year doing that practice every single day for one year.
Liz Goldwyn: How many hours a day?
Diana Winston: 16 hours a day, something like that.
Liz Goldwyn: In silence?
Diana Winston: I was in silence for the whole year unless I needed toothpaste or something.
Liz Goldwyn: This was before your daughter?
Diana Winston: This was-- oh gosh. Yes, definitely before my daughter was born. But you're not just like sitting still for 18 hours. You're doing sitting meditation for an hour, walking meditation, sitting, walking. So the day is a little bit more integrated.
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah. You must've had a lot of insights.
Diana Winston: It was a very amazing period of my life and a hard one too because I was living, you know, in another culture, I didn't speak the language, I missed my family. I didn't like the food. I mean, there were like 50 things that were driving me crazy, but it was tremendously valuable for just what you're pointing to, the opening of insight, the opportunity to go into this practice in depth and really get to understand myself and see like who am I, that underneath all this stuff that I take to be myself, like who is really here and what do I believe? And also to find a kind of courage that I can be with myself no matter what, and a love for myself. There's so many gifts that came from that time.
Liz Goldwyn: And that seems like that's a big part of mindfulness too, right? Spending time with yourself and your thoughts and getting to the bottom of things before you eat that Twix bar. (Both laugh)
Diana Winston: Well, the more we understand ourselves and our motivations, the more we have a possibility for some kind of intervention, you know what I mean? If you're just unconscious, most of us are unconscious, we're just blah, blah, blah, doing our thing, but once you start to bring awareness, then you have choice. Usually we're just reactive, we're reacting. Reactivity I would define as acting out of our habitual patterns without consciousness. That's what we're doing. But once you start to become more self-aware and you say, "Oh, there's that desire to eat the Twix bar," and then you have a choice. You can eat it or you can decide not to eat it. But until you're aware, you're just going to be like a robot eating the Twix because you're at the mercy of your impulses.
Liz Goldwyn: Those damn impulses. (Both laugh) So I've also been attending your free, again, free weekly guided meditations at the Hammer Museum here in Los Angeles. And one of my favorite ones that you did was with the Tibetan sound bowls. And I was wondering if you could explain a little bit about what sound bowls are and how that heightens or adds to the experience of meditation.
Diana Winston: Yeah. He calls it Tibetan singing bowls, but the person that I collaborate with, Michael Paracone, has about 30 Tibetan singing bowls that are of all different shapes and sizes. And he says they're all over 500 years old. And supposedly they create different vibrations which have an impact on our brain. And honestly, I don't really know how it works. All I know is that when he plays it in combination with the meditation, people have very powerful experiences where there's a sense of deep connection and mindfulness and stillness and happiness.
Now, I don't do it every week. And the reason I don't do it every week is because I think that people need to learn to meditate in silence because we don't have the singing bowls with us every week in our lives. We want to learn the skills that one can do in silence and being with oneself. Because oftentimes when there's music, sometimes it can lead to all those things that I mentioned, but also at times, it can just lead to spacing out and lack of awareness. So I think it's a wonderful thing, but it's not kind of my usual thing.
Liz Goldwyn: Right. Well, I was wondering if we could do together right now an easy five minute meditation.
Diana Winston: Yeah, of course.
Liz Goldwyn: Okay. I'm going to put my notebook down so I can be mindful and present.
Diana Winston: Okay. So I just invite you to settle back. And if you just have an upright spine. And not too rigid or tight, and your hands resting wherever they're comfortable. And you can close your eyes if that makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, keep them open, but just looking not all around. And then maybe take a few deep breaths. Allowing the deep breaths to settle you a little bit. And inviting in the possibility of relaxation and ease.
You can notice if there's sounds in the room, sounds around us, just listening for a moment to the sounds. Letting the sounds come and go. Not getting lost in a story or analysis of the sound, just listening.
And now come back into your body and notice your body is breathing. Notice where you feel your breath the clearest in your body, your abdomen rising and falling, your chest expanding and contracting. The air moving through your nose.
So we want something to focus on for the meditation and you can use your breath or the sounds. Just pick something, it doesn't matter. Your abdomen rising and falling. Your chest expanding and contracting. The air through your nose or the sounds as they come and go. So we'll focus on this one thing, when your attention wanders, and it will wander. It does at least for most people. When you notice your thinking, just bring your attention gently back to your main focus.
So I'll be quiet for about a minute as we try it together. Just keep coming back. It's all you have to do
(silence)
And now, just noticing the impact of having done this very short practice, what's happening inside you, in your body, in your mind, heart, and letting whatever is here be here. There's nothing that's supposed to be happening. If there's more peace and ease, really let that be here. If there's not, just be curious about what is here. Let that be okay.
When you're ready, feel free to open your eyes.
Liz Goldwyn: I was really listening to my heartbeat.
Diana Winston: Yeah. It's a very powerful thing to notice when you're meditating just-- uh-huh?
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah. One thing is that I noticed, it's happened to me before in meditation, and actually a couple of times at the Hammer, where I've found myself coming out of meditation and crying. I've had strong, emotional reactions to meditation. Is that normal? Have you heard of that?
Diana Winston: It's normal. (both laugh) That's very normal. I mean, think about it, our whole day, it's like externally focused, and then you give yourself some time to meditate and it's like you're coming home to yourself, right? And that can be incredibly poignant. It can be like, "Oh, this emotion has been here all day and I didn't even notice it, and so now I'm giving it space and it's coming up." There's many reasons, but it's super, super common that people feel all sorts of emotions.
Liz Goldwyn: Sadness or anger, anxiety.
Diana Winston: Anything. Oh yeah. Like I'm saying, there's oftentimes things going on that, because we're so busy, we're tuned out of, and then when we give ourself the space, we go, "Oh. Wow. I've been angry all day at that jerk that did blah, blah, blah today," but you didn't even know it. So yeah, it gives us space. But what we also see is these emotions come and go. They're kind of like weather patterns passing through. And so we honor it, we feel it, and then it's almost like they get metabolized and we can move on instead of harboring them.
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah. Is there any last advice that you would like to give on one thing that we could do today to practice mindfulness, that we could take away?
Diana Winston: I'll offer a really simple practice for bringing mindfulness into your daily life, and the practice is STOP. And it's an acronym to help you remember. It stands for stop, take a breath, observe and proceed. So when you really need mindfulness or you remember, or you want to try to be mindful, you might stop, take a breath, eyes open or closed, and then observe what's happening inside me right now. My heart is racing. My stomach is clenched. I am exhausted. I'm feeling tender. I'm happy. Whatever is happening, it could be emotional, physical, it can even be listening to more external things. So just take a few seconds to observe and then P, proceed, but with more mindfulness. So it's a terrific practice in the midst of the day.
Liz Goldwyn: So this could also help in business, right?
Diana Winston: It can help. Absolutely. (Both laugh)
Liz Goldwyn: Or with arguing.
Diana Winston: So you don't send that email you were planning to send when that person pisses you off, right?
Liz Goldwyn: Right. Or the sext.
Diana Winston: Absolutely.
Liz Goldwyn: Or any of it.
Diana Winston: Just stop. It's an internal reset in a sense.
Liz Goldwyn: Thank you so much.
Diana Winston: You're welcome. Happy to be here.
Liz Goldwyn: Thank you.
Liz Goldwyn: That was Diana Winston, director of mindfulness education at UCLA's Mindful Awareness Research Center. If you want to learn meditation and mindfulness practice, visit marc.ucla.edu for a wide range of free, that's right, free online guided meditations in English and Spanish.
Thanks for listening to The Sex Ed. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to visit us at thesexed.com.
The Sex Ed is hosted by me, Liz Goldwyn. This episode was produced by Isley Grondi for the Media Mob. Jackie Wilson is our line producer. Jeremy Emory is our sound recordist and editor and Bettina Santa Domingo is our coordinator. Louis Lazar made all of our music, including the track you're listening to right now.
Until next time, The Sex Ed remains dedicated to expanding your orgasmic health and sexual consciousness.