Porn Literacy & Parenting
Author: Erika Lust & Pablo Dobner
Photo Credit: Monica Figueras
Erika Lust is the founder of the groundbreaking ethical porn company Erika Lust films. With her husband, Pablo Dobner, she has advocated for higher standards in front of and behind the camera in the porn world. In 2022, they launched The Porn Conversation, a company that provides guides for educators and parents to discuss and teach porn literacy to kids. Longtime friends of The Sex Ed, Erika and Pablo speak here about how they discuss their work with their children; what ethical porn is; and how porn viewers can make better choices about what porn they consume.
Erika Lust: We are parents to kids that are 11 and 14. Other parents come up to us and ask us how we are handling [discussing porn with them]. They ask us if our kids know about [the porn we make.] I always say, "Of course, they know."
Pablo Dobner: We're not Pablo Escobar. We do something that is legal and therefore they can know what we're doing. [The other parents’] approach is full of anxiety. We don't have a problem telling them what we do and what is porn. [They’re uncomfortable] because their kid is 14 and they probably never talk with him or her about porn. And bad news, sorry, they've been watching porn probably for the last couple of years.
Erika Lust: We are at an advantage here. We know about this subject. We are not afraid or scared to talk about it. We are not embarrassed. We know how to handle it. Because the reality of today is that porn has become sex education, whether we like it or not.
Pablo Dobner: Bad porn has become sex education.
Erika Lust: Exactly. Because of the access to online porn. And the people who are making those videos, they are not even considering the aspect of it being education. It was never meant to become education. They never considered the value of it being education, but it is. So, what happens, most parents hide from it. They put their heads in the sand. They try to navigate the world as if it's not existing, as they have never watched it, they know nothing about it. That is just not working. We all have seen from various investigations that kids actually are starting to access the internet, looking at porn from an age of nine, 10, 11.
Pablo Dobner: Have you read what Billie Eilish said?
Erika Lust: She was talking about porn destroying her brain and misrepresenting women, which brings me to the subject of understanding a little about porn. I think that what we are lacking in the world today, what we are lacking in our society is porn literacy. People know very little about porn. They are not aware that not all porn is the same.
Most people think that what is out there on tube sites is porn. But actually, porn can be many different things, and there is definitely an independent porn scene growing. Every year, new small production companies, directors, performers are joining this scene.
On The Difference Between Adults and Kids Watching Porn and Representation Behind The Camera:
Erika Lust: Most adult people who have had sex in their life, they can handle watching porn. They can separate what is porn from real sex, because adults have the experience. But the problem is really what happens when young people go online. They haven't had sex education. They haven't had access to the right kind of sex education and to the right kind of media critical thinking. So, they don't have the analytic tools to understand what they are seeing. Sometimes, they can't really separate the exaggerated fiction that porn is done by professional performers from what is real life sex.
I try to tell younger people when we are talking about porn that, "Listen, you've seen Superman in the cinema. Obviously, in the film, he can fly, but in reality, there's no human being who knows how to fly." We have to remember that cinema is an illusion done by movie makers who know how to use the camera and angles, they have techniques. It is fiction.
Pablo Dobner: I always like to add that this is made by the same guy. There's no diversity. Porn is made by a certain type of person. This is not like Hollywood where you have many different kinds of directors, female, male, African American, et cetera. Here, it's the same guy doing the same content. The same happens here. Porn is misrepresenting a lot of things from human sexuality, and we only have this tiny vision from a group of mostly heterosexual, white, middle aged guys.
Erika Lust: However, it's also very important to not blame porn for everything that is going on, because porn is definitely mirroring the values we have in our society. And we live in a society that is already sexist, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, et cetera. And those are the values that we then will see in porn. When young people go online and watch this, what happens is that they take it back to their real life and they start in their own sexual encounters to represent and reproduce what they have learned from this sexual representation.
I have so many conversations with young people when they are telling me that something is wrong with their bodies, that they can't reach an orgasm. And when we get into talking about why, it becomes clear that it is because they are thinking that four minutes of hard penetration, vaginal penetration will bring them to an orgasm.
Young men, they go out in their lives and they think that they should act this role of the sexy stud, the penetrative sex machine, and they should be active and be hard. For most young people, it's just not working, because what they really need is time and conversations, and figuring out kind of first for themself what they like sexually, and then together with a couple.
Pablo Dobner: More slow sex, like slow food, less fast food, fast sex.
Erika Lust: What has happened with online porn is that it has changed the consumption of pornography. I see that many people are using it to calm their anxiety rather than to have a great night or a great sexual, mindful experience. They go online, they open window after window, and they are just looking at the impact.
It's like eating a bag of potato chips quickly. But then they don't really feel satisfaction from what they have watched. It's like when you eat too much fast food too fast, and then you just feel full and bad.
On How to Have Better Porn Literacy, and How to Talk About it with Kids:
Pablo Dobner: Visit ThePornConversation.org.
Erika Lust: We have a few different PDF guides for different age groups that people can download, with concrete advice on how to approach [having a conversation with your children about porn.] The first thing I would tell them would be to read up for themselves. Because the first thing I see with parents is that many of them, they didn't have access to great sex education themselves. They do not really know how to talk about these subjects.
Pablo Dobner: I would suggest also being aware that you have to be porn literate and have porn literacy if you want to have the conversation. If you don't go online and try to understand what is happening, watching the different kinds of porns that are out there, see if there is any alternative, et cetera, then you cannot start talking. You need to educate yourself before having a conversation.
Erika Lust: I think most kids are really looking up to their parents and are very influenced by their parents and their views, visions, and values in life. I think that if you, in a very open way, talk to your kids or teenagers, and you ask, "Hey, have you ever watched porn?" maybe they will not even answer you. Or say, "No." Maybe they have, obviously, even if they tell you no.
So, you just keep on going and then just say, "Well I watched it myself a few times, but when I've been online to these sites I don't feel that great about them. Because when I go there, I see the language they are using seems very misogynistic, sexist, and racist to me. I don't really..."
Pablo Dobner: You just start telling them how you feel about it.
Erika Lust: You can say, "I feel that most of the sex that they are showing is not really about the woman's pleasure. It feels to me like women are more being used as some kind of sex tool for men's pleasure." I think that these kinds of observations that you are making will help them to realize next time, when they go online or when they're in a friend's place and a friend is showing them something. They will look at it and they will awaken somehow. This is also something that I've seen with adult people, and especially with many, many men who are telling me that they have watched online porn for years, and they've been happy about it. And they have never really thought about it just the way they used to masturbate to something online.
Next time they go online, and they're starting to read the taglines, and they see: “tiny teen destroyed by BBC.” They go, "This might not be right. This is not the kind of porn I want to support or I want to watch." So, I really believe in our capability as human beings to process, and to grow, and to become awake, and to understand, and to ultimately change.
On How to Consume Porn More Mindfully:
Erika Lust: I think that we can become responsible consumers, not only of food or fashion, or whatever we are into, but also of porn. It's a lot about being aware. And a little tip from my side would be to see where you are navigating porn online. If there's an about page, can you learn anything about that platform, about that site, about that production company? Are they talking about their values? Do they have a manifesto? Can you see who the owners are, who the producers are, who the directors are?
You can get by yourself an idea of if you align with the values. And one of the things I'm trying to tell people is that if you are not paying for it, you will have to be suspicious. Because obviously, it costs money. So, if you are not paying, how does this equation work?
I would recommend people to pay for their porn, because I think that that is the ethical way of being a porn consumer. It's not only us as producers who take part in this industry. The consumers are also part of the porn industry. And I think that it's only fair to make sure that the porn you are watching, that it's made in a way where the production company is respecting the working conditions of all people involved in that production, not only the performers, but also the crew members, et cetera. And to make sure that they are being paid correctly. And the only way of making sure is to pay for your porn.
On What Ethical Porn is:
Pablo Dobner: With porn, the line is blurry. We can say that what we're doing is ethical. A horrendous platform can say that they're following highly ethical procedures, standards for the production process. So, what is ethical and what is not? I would say it's a blurry line.
It's subjective. It's not something that is super protected. There is not a fair porn stamp. As a consumer, what you can do is start asking yourself questions the same way you do when you go to the supermarket, or to buy fashion, or to buy a car, ask yourself the proper questions: who is making this, what are the values of the company making this?
One of the main measuring standards to see is if they are transparent in the production. If you go to our sites, you can see where we are, who we are, what our address is, and our name.
Erika Lust: You are a consumer and you can decide for your standards what is ethical, what is not.
Pablo Dobner: Maybe for a consumer, the fact that they're paying for their porn is enough as an ethics standard, which I think is a cool way to start. But maybe for other consumers, the way is to know the producer and to be able to read that they have a production guide, standard guidelines, et cetera. It is up to you. You don't need to be the best ethical, organic, responsible porn consumer. Do your best. Start asking at least a few questions.
Erika Lust: At our company, we have our main values that we share on our site. They're about equal pleasure. I think really that women's pleasure matters. Our female characters have their own sex drive and desires and are not passive object focused primarily on pleasing the men. That's one of the things that we think is important.
Diversity. Represent all people equally and respectfully. Do not reduce performers to any primal feature, whether that be body shape, ability, age, or ethnicity. And these are things that we see a lot on the online tube sites where they have the categories. It's the Asians, and it's the Latinas, and it's the ebonies, it's the big breasted, then it's the teens.
Fair pay, too. Pay every person fairly from interns to performers. When you pay for your porn, you ensure that everyone working on the movie gets the right pay. The transparency that we've been talking about. I think also that the safe sex environment is crucial. Every performer in every shoot must provide up to date STI tests and choose which method of safe sex they will use. No surprises. It's another very important point.
Consent. Each part of the film is discussed and agreed upon with all performers well before the shoot. Because this is something that I've heard stories from performers many times in this industry where they have agreed to something, they go on set, and they are being pushed to do something else.
And worker standards. All shoots include multiple breaks, food, and a welcoming, relaxed atmosphere. Take care of them. We are working together. Everybody should be valued. Take care of the whole team and fair commissions. Every director, studio featured is paid commission for the sale of their films.
Photo Credit: Monica Figueras
On What We Can Learn From Porn:
Erika Lust: Porn can be an amazing source of inspiration, really. I think that so many people are so insecure about their own sexuality or about what they like, what they don't like, how to communicate around sex, how to give consent, et cetera.
I think that porn can help us to explore our own sexuality. It can give us, obviously, a direct kind of pleasure, stimulation when you want it. And it can help us. I think it has this enormous potential to make you understand the characters and empathize with different kinds of situations and characters, and open up outside your own sexuality.
I hear this, especially from heterosexual men who have never really watched anything outside their own genre. And then they come to our site where we have a range of diverse videos, films showing different kinds of sexuality, genders and more. I’ve received emails telling me that for the first time, they watched porn with male interaction, and they thought it was beautiful. Not that they feel that maybe that's what they want to do, but suddenly they understand the situation, and the feelings, and that it's not that different. And that we are talking about two human beings having a connection.
Pablo Dobner: The same goes with food. You can get a lot of amazing nutrients. You can turn food into medicine, or you can poison yourself to death.
Erika Lust: That's hard, but it's also true. I also have many, many stories from many of my queer friends telling me that porn really helped them to understand their own sexuality, and to connect to themselves, because they didn't see that many other representations growing up in society in general.
I think it can have that value. I definitely consider the educational aspect of it when I'm making it, when I'm working with an idea and a script. I tend to try to analyze it and see how it is reflecting upon gender roles, and how they are being played out, and what would happen if I would change a male character if we're a female character.
Sometimes, I realize that I am obviously a product of the world I have been brought up in. And some of my fantasies might be standards or stereotypes or...
Pablo Dobner: Affected by patriarchy.
Erika Lust: I think that when we get into this field as the others, as women, as LGBTQI+ community, as BIPOC folks. When we get into this field, we cannot be too harsh with ourselves either to try to always do the right thing. We also need to have a little space to fail, and to explore, and to try things out, and to not feel that we are having the whole heavy world upon our shoulders.
Pablo Dobner: For me, the problem with porn is the way we talk in society about the media. We talk about, I don't know, cars, or drugs, or alcohol. But porn, it's a no go subject. That's why we started The Porn Conversation. Has to be present, because it's not only mass media, it's super powerful. One-third of internet traffic, at certain hours in several countries. So, maybe people are watching more porn than TV, than films. We have to give it the importance that it has.
Erika Lust: We need to think critically about it. I say many times that I both love and hate porn. For me, it's a complex relationship, in a way.
Sometimes, I play in my mind what would happen if Netflix, for example, would name their content the same way as online porn is naming their content. Take for example, Bridgerton. Imagine if there, you would read a tagline saying: “big black man meeting tiny, white teen.” You would be shocked. You would go, "This is impossible."
Pablo Dobner: But in porn, it's ...
Erika Lust: It still exists. You are still allowed to use that language and to feel turned on by it. To play out these kinds of misogynistic and racist fantasies. And for me, it's still a mystery how we are not talking more openly about this in our society.
That's also the narrative that we hear all the time. Because in the media, porn is described in this derogatory way. And porn people are described as adult clowns that know nothing about the world or values, or consent, or business. And they are just seen as promiscuous, tasteless people who are kind of ridiculous.
When you work in something that is porn related, you have a hard time just existing on social media. Biased banning. It's definitely going on. We have our accounts shadow banned all the time. This is not only happening to porn, it's also happening [to educational accounts like The Sex Ed’s.]
Pablo Dobner: We don't get by with payment processors, we don't get by with certain banking operations.
Erika Lust: Sometimes people ask me, “Why is porn so expensive? You say pay for your porn, but then it's really, really expensive.” I always try to explain to them that, that is so because of the payment processors and the banking system that they are not supporting what we do. So, we have very high commission fees.
Erika Lust: We can change things, press, and media, and consumers. We do have power. We can change things. To make people aware and we need to have them see that it does matter, that porn does matter. How we are representing sexuality online matters. That has an impact on our lives, and on our kids, and teenagers' lives.
Pablo Dobner: The problem with porn is not porn per se. The problem with porn is bad, disrespectful, full of bullshit values porn. Because porn, it's an accepting word. You can put anything you want in there.
Erika Lust: And this critical thinking about porn has been around for quite a while.
Pablo Dobner: Annie Sprinkle said, "The answer to bad porn is not no porn, but to make better porn."
On their Favorite Things About Being in the Porn Business:
Erika Lust: There are two aspects of it. One is to make an impact on a changing point of culture, the activist side of it. And the other one is the artist side of it. It's the filmmaker side of it. I really, really, really enjoy making these kinds of films. I think it's just that the work is fantastic. It's somehow such a revolutionary thing to do to portray sexuality the way that we are doing it.
Seeing the community grow that, for me, has become very, very important. I am privileged. I have made this space for myself. And now, I'm really opening up the door for so many other people to get in here and to try this out and to add their perspectives.
Pablo Dobner: For me, it's seeing the project grow. Seeing society evolving. We started in 2004. It was quite advanced then. Society was not really there in terms of what we were saying.
Erika Lust: I was told by important men in this industry that women would never buy anything that had to do with sex or porn.
I'm hoping we can change the world a little for when our kids grow up. I want them to be able to get into a world that is a little more informed. And now, of course, they are super privileged, because they are growing up in our family and here in Barcelona, a very liberal city and in a community of people who are very aware and accepting.
I've seen my daughter interact in a WhatsApp group when a boy in her class had sent some stupid, dirty dick pics and stuff. And I've seen her standing up saying, "Hey, this is not correct. Take out those pictures, because otherwise we are going to cancel you. And you're not going to be able to still be in this group."
I find it so amazing when I see that when they grow up and they have these values, they know how to navigate difficult situations. I've seen the whole class also supporting a boy coming out as gay having trouble to tell his parents about it. And I've seen the whole class being there, supporting them. And these kinds of things when I see them, they make me feel so proud as a mother and so proud to see this new generation. If we can just give them the tools to the critical thinking, and the sex education, and the values to understand the world, they are going to do great. Everything that we have been fighting for is worth it.