Gwen McClendon
Podcast Transcript Season 1 Episode 5
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Liz Goldwyn: Hello, welcome to The Sex Ed. I'm your host, Liz Goldwyn, founder of thesexed.com. Your number one source for sex, health and consciousness education. Today on The Sex Ed I'm speaking with Gwen McClendon, who's been a sex educator since 1969. Gwen is also a minister at Shabach Christian Fellowship Church in Los Angeles where she served as youth pastor for over 30 years. I met Gwen several years ago at a women's empowerment breakfast in Los Angeles, where we struck up a conversation about sex, love and God. In this interview, we discuss these topics along with abstinence, raging teenage hormones and the church's responsibility when it comes to sex ed.
Liz Goldwyn: I'm here today with Gwen McClendon minister and sex educator. I'm so excited to have you here. You graduated from high school in New Jersey in 1965 and then you went back to your high school after graduating from college to start a co-ed sex ed curriculum in 1969. I cannot imagine what that must've been like to come from a school where you were just a student and, I don’t know, did you even have sex education in school?
Gwen McClendon: Well, it wasn't in the curriculum but it certainly was in the social aspect of the school, so no, the answer is no. But the great thing about the New Jersey schools at that time, they had mandatory health education for all years. And so we did have that but nobody ever breached or dealt with sex education. And of course, when I went to college, being the activist that I became and was, I said, “I just knew when I come back, everybody's going to have sex education.” Well, fast forward, how many years later now? Hello, it's still not happening. But it was interesting and exciting and it also was transitional for me because I was now a teacher and a peer with my own teachers and their responses to me and reactions were quite interesting.
Liz Goldwyn: What were some of their reactions?
Gwen McClendon: One teacher in particular, I made a comment and she said, "I didn't know, you talk like that." I think it was like a slang kind of thing, but it was interesting to see and I could see them as people and not just as teachers. But it was really very exciting because I was so close to the age of the seniors, but they really took to the class very well. It was a novel type of thing, it was in the newspapers, which was kind of funny at the time but my intent at that time was to get the two genders together to talk, to hear each other. And one of the things that I was able to do, I did a class walk and I sent the boys out separately and the girls out separately and their instructions were they had to be silent. They could only observe.
And then when they came back, I asked them to report, and the girls reported, “Well, we went around the corner and this lady was doing wash, she had blue towels and orange towels, et cetera. And there were two cars and one had silver chrome, et cetera.” And the boys said, “There were some clothes and this lady was washing clothes.” So right away they saw where they were different, in how they view things and see things. Again, my objective was to have them be aware of their sexuality. I would start by saying, “You know, your parents are sexual beings,” and at least one person would just, just fought, "Not my mother, not my mother. Uh-uh (negative)." I said, "Well, okay, so you came here by what kind of creation?" We are all sexual beings and we have sexuality. And I said, “It's not in terms of our sex, it's in terms of our gender.” I said, “But we are sexual beings and it's not a bad thing so let's talk about it.”
We started to talk about it. We went beyond the anatomy, and for me the anatomy was the structure, but I wanted to talk about the feelings, and my philosophy in sex education is we need to stop telling them no, and tell them why. And then some of the hows. But the why basically, without parents becoming too common to children because sometimes it happens too familiar, they don't need all of that information. But to let them know how they felt and their sexuality, how they missed, how they succeeded, how they failed, what their fears were. And to take all of the “ooo,” “eee,” out of the sex thing and know that it's natural. For example, my observations regarding sex is when you start with little babies and parents immediately say, "Okay, this is your nose, these are your ears, this is your mouth."
And the baby, you know, rotes that, “Nose,” and they point to it. And then when they get below the waist, it becomes, “nah-nah-nah,” “woo-do-do-do,” and there's no specifics. A funny story about that in my own family, my aunt with her grandson who was four, both his parents taught health education until the school's co-educational so they taught it as well. Well, they taught him the parts of his body. And so she said, "Well, granny has to wash up before breakfast." He said,"Okay, granny," he was very precocious. He still is. “You're going to wash your ears?” “Yes, Dwayne, I'm going to wash my…” “You're going to wash your neck?” “Yes.” “You're going to wash your hands? Granny, are you going to wash your vagina?” And she almost fell off the tub. (Both laugh) And he's used to a four year old who knew how to say the word. And I just remembered that because I just happened to be there that day and I just saw her reaction. She said, "You taught that boy that?" To his parents. And he said, "Of course.” This is where it starts, the hiddenness-
Liz Goldwyn: Shame.
Gwen McClendon: The shame and not calling-- you know, I understand it's hard to see your four year old talking about this is my vagina, this is my penis, but that's what they are.
Liz Goldwyn: When you first started the co-ed curriculum, you were really only four or five years older than your students, so that must've been interesting talking about sex I imagine with some kids who might have had crushes on you.
Gwen McClendon: Yes. And at that time I was like a brick house. I was proud of that but I did get hit on by both sexes. It also made me aware of something that I don't think that I really was aware of when I was at the school and a student, the aspect of the homosexuality. So I don't know if it was just so much more hidden or that I was more aware. And I had one young lady come up to me and she was a little bit overbearing, et cetera. And I said, “You know what? I'm not looking for a girlfriend on that level,” and I said some things to her in terms of deterring because she was kind of like she was my man. And I said, "And I'm not interested." I said, "I thank you. I'm flattered." I said, “But it's inappropriate,” and I said, “It’s over.” I saw a lot of very aggressive young ladies at that time. Some of the boys-- many of the young men were in theater, in entertainment, and one young man, I'll never forget him, he changed his name to Michelle and we had an incident.
I was also a dance teacher and we were changing for dance and I heard all the screaming in the locker room. Well, Michael, now Michelle, was changing into his leotards, totally oblivious to the girl, screaming and running around. And when I came in and looked at him, I said, "What are you doing?" He said, "Getting dressed for class." He said, "Now Ms. McClinden you know they don't have nothing that I want." I said, "You know I understand that." And so I said, "We're going to give you a place to change." But I said, “Let me just put it to you this way. As long as you have that,” and I was talking about his penis, “you can't dress here. Okay?” And that's how I was with them, I was just that blunt, you know. I said, "As long as you have a penis, you can't be in the girl's locker room. But we're going to give you a place to dress, you can dress in my office before the class.”
It was that time and it was evolving, and it was evolving for me. Quite frankly we never really talked about homosexuality in the class per se. And I don't really know why I have to be very honest because I thought about this, it was so many years ago, I didn't think it was bad. I didn't think anything about it. I just basically had a core curriculum that dealt with health education and I enlarged it in to include sex education outside of just the anatomy aspect. If I were to teach it today, and I do, it certainly would be included because it cannot be ignored in the times right now. But this brought me into a lot of memories, you know, and I do know that one of my young students is a very well known author right now, authors. And when she previewed her book here in LA, I surprised her by showing up and she stopped the session and said, "There is Ms. McClendon, my health teacher. She helped me from being pregnant." And I never heard anything. I just was like, I was so proud! (Giggle)
Liz Goldwyn: Of course.
Gwen McClendon: But I didn't realize the impact that I had. And basically it was because I dealt with issues about self worth, value, not to speak of vagina or a penis. And this was to the boys also. I was kind of… I think if I did some of the things that I didn't in the classroom at that time, I probably would have been asked not to teach or it'd be put out. I remember one incident, I'm not so proud about it right now but when I did it, I felt I had an objective. I had a young man, he was very physical with the women, slapping them on the behinds, et cetera. And he was a major jock-- football player and he was very sexually abusive. You know, we didn't have those terms then. The next day in class, because one of the girls who was talking about it but I was observing too because I could mingle in with them too. And that particular classroom, for 30 minutes I taught the class, staring at his genitals the entire time.
Liz Goldwyn: Wow.
Gwen McClendon: When I tell you his body language, if he could-- in his face, I saw he was trying to disappear. And I realized now that probably would be termed abusive also but we never had too much trouble with him after that, because after I said to him, "How does it feel to be objectified? How does it feel?" He said, "I felt like vomiting." He said, "I didn't realize." So maybe I was a little ahead of my time, maybe that was not so nice, but basically it took care of some of the immediate problem, but again, that's in my naivety of to change the world about being open sexually. That's where I was.
Liz Goldwyn: Did you have a strong religious practice at this time?
Gwen McClendon: I would say yes and no. Not to the level that I am right now in terms of knowing where my faith is in terms of keeping me a celibate even at 70 years of age, you know. But for many different reasons, not just because it's a sin, because the church gives you two things: If you're going to have sex, be married, and if you do have sex in outside of marriage you’re a sinner. So there's no gray. If it's talked about at all. And even today it's a tragedy that, to me the church should be the ones saying, “This is what it is.” What does a loving relationship look like? How does monogamy help people? And they fail greatly because they bring in the shame factor and the shaming factor of it.
And you tell people, no, but you tell them that you should do this, but you don't tell them the how. How do I get to that? What do I do with these feelings? You know, because they're going to come. They come early. You know, I'm dismayed because we're so sexualized right now. You see a little four and five-year-olds on some of the television shows and the immediate question that they ask is, “Do you have a boyfriend?” Leave these kids alone. You know, why are we pressing? And then when they get into sexual activity, then we're all upset. They are sexual beings, they need to know about an aspect of it, but they don't need to be pushed into relationships that will evolve into sexual practices when they don't even know who they are. And I think that with the social media aspect now it's imperative that we just go back to basics and just talk about who are you as a person.
Liz Goldwyn: When you moved to Los Angeles and you became a minister at your church, you also continued to be active in sex education, particularly as a youth pastor. How did you reconcile your religious beliefs with teaching sexuality? And how was your approach different than it would have been at a public school in New Jersey versus teaching in a church?
Gwen McClendon: Well, again, my philosophy was that every no of God is yes and I presented it like that. And I said, “One sexual act can change your entire life and set you on a compass or a course that you had no plans for, and with a person that you barely know. With two people that you barely know, yourself and the other person.” And we would talk about it relative to the, of course sexual diseases and transmission and safe sex, et cetera. But more from a place of, how do you feel when you've had a sexual encounter? Whether it was going all the way or just petting, et cetera. How do you feel when you've done that or engaged in that activity or behavior and that person the next day doesn't even speak to you? That's the approach that I dealt with it. And then basically as Christians what does God say about it? And basically it was to your worth, to your wellbeing, to your becoming the whole person and not becoming wounded. And that's the approach that I use.
Liz Goldwyn: What do you think about abstinence only education? In your own words, you said that teenagers in particular are hit seeking missiles, does abstinence only education work?
Gwen McClendon: Well, actually the quote was my girlfriend’s, but I do agree because they are, again, being sexual beings, this is a reality, it's life. We don't prepare them, and abstinence alone without explaining the why. A theologian, Myles Munroe, who unfortunately died last year in a horrible plane crash, dealt with potential, but he also dealt with some other things and he said, “When the purpose of a thing is not known, then abuse of it is inevitable,” and I teach from that aspect. And what's the purpose of abstinence? What does it do? What's the value to you? But then without having a corresponding type of dialogue of, what do you do with your feelings? That becomes sexual when you become sexually aroused, that when you get the hots for somebody and then with all the social media stuff, with the deep kissing and like, you know, how do you handle that?
I think that we do a disservice when we don't talk about it and we don't deal with it. And I deal with it. We talk about it, say, you know, a peck on the cheek is real different from deep tongues engaging in duels (laughs) in each other's mouth, and it creates and involves things. And I also talk to the level of like how the genital organs become lubricated because you're into a pre-sex thing and understanding that, not being ignorant of it like, "Oh, what's happening? I know something's happening but I don't know what.” They need to know the what.
Liz Goldwyn: Do you believe that sex should be relegated to procreation or is there room for sex for pleasure?
Gwen McClendon: I absolutely think sex for pleasure should be absolutely experienced, but in my opinion, in the realm of marriage. And I think that the intent and purpose relative to that is keeping people safe and safe relationships, although we know that that's abused quite a bit, et cetera, but that's the realm that I look at it. Understanding that's not what the general practice is but then if you're going to have recreational sex outside of marriage, then at least be wise in your sex behavior. And again, coming to self-worth, protection and protecting the person from the obvious. I think it's irresponsible for anyone to engage in sexual behavior, married or not married and not have protection. I just think it's irresponsible. I think it's not fair to the community as a whole.
Liz Goldwyn: In preparation for this conversation, you were rethinking over your last… I guess it's almost 50 years.
Gwen McClendon: I also realized that, you know, of course again, you know, newly graduated from college, changing the world, and I'm saying over 50 plus years later, we're not really that much further, nothing. If anything I think we're further behind. And as a minister of the gospel, I think that it is, I'm going to use the word negligent, that the church has been very negligent to stay steeped in some of their areas. And certainly it needs to be approached and dealt with and, not approached, addressed because look at the sexual scandals. You know, and they're just not happenstance, it's because people have not been told, heard, listened to, talk, dealt with relative to who they are as sexual beings. You put a collar on and that's supposed to keep your genitals intact, it doesn't happen.
And then also understanding that predators are anywhere, anytime that... Again, it also made me reflect on my own sexuality, to be honest, particularly in the light of #MeToo and all of that stuff. And I thought about the subtle sexual advances that happened to me but I didn't recognize them. Because at first I was like, really adamant about these women, why’d they wait 10 years, they could have warned other women. And then I had to readdress that in my own thinking, in my own judgment. Because I remember that episodes of people that, like a dentist… and as they were giving an oral examination, how there was a breast pressure. I didn't even think about it at the time. I knew something was happening, but you discounted it.
Liz Goldwyn: You could discount a lot of your experiences I think as women, because it's just constant all day long.
Gwen McClendon: Right. And the subtleties of it because you don't realize, but again, that's why I'm so very adamant about teaching self worth and who you are and the power of your no, but you can't have a no, when you don't know. And ignorance is not bliss, you know. I have two pastors that are female, which is kind of unique and the kind of misogyny and the misandry we deal with both of them, but the misogyny that they have to experience to this day, this day, 2018 and what we've had to deal with. And my pastors are very much in terms of healing, the relational healing of people, of sexual and relational healing, and we're in a group with Living Waters, with Andy Kaminsky, which deals with those issues.
It started with John Wimber in a church where he's the only person at the time that allowed them to have a support group for people who felt they were in the gay lifestyle but they felt that they were not really gay, and they wanted some type of healing. They couldn't find any church that would deal with them. They didn't want those homosexuals there. My comment, because I have a big mouth sometimes, is they would have probably taken and accept a Hitler before they accepted these gays.
Liz Goldwyn: What are your views on homosexuality? Because I know you're teaching from a place of a model of Christ's love, does that include embracing diverse sexual identification?
Gwen McClendon: I don't agree and, I won't say agree, I'm trying to think of a better word, but homosexuality for me, relative from a minister's viewpoint and Christian viewpoint, is not something that is acceptable. However, the homosexual is a person that should be shown love, respect, temperance and tolerance. And some of the stuff and the bad acting is absolutely deplorable and needs to be dealt with, and much of it comes from the church. So the same time you're talking about this gay person while your pastor has 15 girlfriends and three kids on the first pew. So let's talk about it, and we're going to talk about it evenly. I certainly understand the aspects of homosexuality. I have participated over 20 years in healing of sexual and relational things.
I believe that there's some basis for it, but I don't feel that my disagreement or my understanding or my opinion of it should preclude anyone from them walking in their walk. And to be able to fight as a group, as aggressively for my spiritual religious freedom, as for their sexual freedom. I just don't want any of it imposed, in both directions, religious or sexual. I don't want somebody to make me do something or you got to, or you have to, or you should, or this is the only. And in Christianity, we deal with it as the only but that is from my point of view but I should never force it on you. And I believe that the true meaning of Jesus's method was love and addressing the worth of a person. Not by who, what they had but who they were.
Liz Goldwyn: And you must've also over 50 years of dealing with sex education and also your spiritual beliefs have seen a much more, really an opening up in the cultural discussion around diverse sexuality. Things are really different than they were in 1969 in terms of the acceptance that we show.
Gwen McClendon: You know again, I think a lot and I have a lot of opinions that gets me into trouble a lot but that's who I am. But I just think that at that time it was a mast. It was always there. Philip Roth was a member of our school, Wigwek high school and the whole sexual thing and they talk about coming out of closets, well, it was imposed. You could not come out, et cetera, but I think that there's nothing new. There's a biblical path to say, there's nothing new under the sun. The difference is that everybody's coming out of the closets. And good, bad or indifferent it is. So how do we deal with that?
How do we deal with it humanely with tolerance, with love? And again, I should be able to disagree agreeably. I should be able to do that and you should also. And I also realized that there's some physical and medical issues that also transcend in terms of some of the transgender and all the other issues. I'm not an expert on that but I just feel that we've worked at a dangerous place and I don't want to get into politics, but we're at a dangerous place that if you don't agree with me, then we have to fight. That's not what the freedom is about. Called freedom of choice, as long as it doesn't impose on or harm me.
Liz Goldwyn: One of the purposes of this podcast is to present people with a lot of different views around this subject. Because someone's story may be very different from your own, their beliefs or their practices may be different from your own, but it's really about listening. And, you know, even though your background might be different than mine, there's something in your story that I can relate to as a human being. We got to find more commonalities, we got to find more of a sense of community amongst each other. Right, if we really are… want to preach love, want to preach unity.
Gwen McClendon: I'm at a great advantage because as I said, my senior pastor, her name is Luida Johnson, I'm saying because I want people to know it, has set a mark at our church. Two things, she said, “The celebrities come into this church, let them worship and don't worship them. No selfies, no pictures, et cetera. And the other thing is when people come in that are operating in a gender issue that you're disagreeing with, don't say a word. Don't approach them and do not make any comments. Love them and love and be loved.” And that's the place where I come from. I think one of the things that I heard, it was said to me personally by a friend, I invited him so he can come visit our church. We were having a special music program and they love music. And his comment was, “Will they be mean to me?” And it broke my heart, because I said, that's what he experienced. I went and told my pastor about it. And we just simply have, you know, we're a committee of one but that should not be.
Liz Goldwyn: How do you see our culture failing young men in particular?
Gwen McClendon: Well, one is in the area of emotions. You fall down on cement and you scrape your knee. I fall down, I'm submitting, and scrape my knee. I can scream my head off. You better suck it up because you got a genital organ that's different from mine. That's ridiculous. But our men are not allowed to evolve emotionally and then we want them to be intimate and loving and caring. Well, how do you learn that when you tell everybody to suck it up, what you really feel?
And I think that we've done them a disservice because we sexualize them. I think that we've put them in a position like, I would hate to be in a position and I'm the one that has to ask for a date. I know that's changed a lot too, but so much of the role of handling the responsibility of the sexual roles we place on the guys. And so when they act out sometimes because they haven't been taught or listened to or approached or nurtured or modeled, they're learning from the seat of their pants. And I just think that we'd have a lot better, whole, community if our men were able to be whole emotionally.
Liz Goldwyn: Because we don't have spaces culturally, where men are able to talk about their feelings the way that women have their girlfriends.
Gwen McClendon: Right. And when they do talk about it, honestly, we don't want to hear it. Like for example, the flip right now is I come from, like, what they call “old school” so I'm on planes a lot. And I see women struggling with suitcases and their son is standing next to them and everything in my head is going off and trying to keep my mouth shut because Gwen mind your own business, well, that doesn't happen too often so I acquiesce. “Is that your mother?” “Yes.” I said, “Well then why don't you help her?” And the mother, it's like an afterthought to the mother. So I am so out of reach and touch in some of this stuff. But I think that we've lost the teaching of gender roles and some of it was crazy, but some of it was necessary.
Liz Goldwyn: Chivalry.
Gwen McClendon: Chivalry, what happened to that? I think it's one of Denzel Washington's movies, when he talked to young ladies about chivalry, they pushed back on him like saying, "How dare you?" And many guys say, I say, “Why didn't you do such and such, you know, help the lady?” “Because I've asked them and women's snap me up, ‘I can do that.’” I said, "Oh.” I think that we need to get back to those graces of chivalry. I think that it helps them with roles. I absolutely, as long as I have breath, we will have chivalry with young people around me, girls and boys, you know. And also, even today in church it's difficult when you see differences. We have a drama team at our church and one of the roles I played was a young lady who was very athletic and she wanted to play basketball, and her parents wanted her to do something that was girlish.
And the soliloquy that we had --because we do ad libs and we create drama from it was-- why don't they just accept me like I am? And so that wounding of children coming out of their authentic self. I was very, very athletic. Now I wasn't like the basketball athletic, I was more of the dance and the aesthetic, but still every little girl is not going to want pink. She doesn't want frills. So can we, as parents, respect these children without wounding them? We've had parents at our church who are playing drums that makes him masculine. Dance, I know we had a dance group and they were just asking little girls in so of course I said, “Our pastor doesn't support that.” I said, "Did you ask the young men?" “Well, no.” I said, “Our pastor does not support that.”
And so that's why I'm saying I'm in a place where I think fundamentally we are a little bit ahead. And I think that much of the church still is like the ostrich, their heads are in the sand and they don't care. I won't say they don't care. They don't want to deal. Well, we better deal. I tell people who have problems with confronting, I said, “You know what? When you don't confront, you're going to be confronted but it won't be on your terms. It’s going to come at you so you better get ready for it.” I'm not ready to sit in that, and like I said, my mouth gets me in trouble. Most of the blessings I get are from my mouth. Some of the curses I get are from my mouth.
Liz Goldwyn: Whose responsibility do you think it should be to teach sex education? Should it be our school systems? Should it be parents? Should it be faith-based?
Gwen McClendon: It should be the parents with complementarianism from the schools and the church in their respective roles without breaching boundaries, but definitely needs to come from the home situation. But the problem is that many of the parents don't know themselves. So that's where I feel that people like myself who were educators, et cetera, can come along with the how tos and the whats. But the core value of that child needs to be shaped by that parent. But unfortunately we have renegade parents today who want to be liked and validated by their children and they are not parenting. I'm not saying this lightly. I think parents take a lot of hits that are not fair, but it really still comes all back down to the parents. So when you see a lot of these adults and children, you're looking at people who have never recovered from the mother or father wounds, they got by either omission or maliciously.
Liz Goldwyn: That's one reason why I think sex education in school is so important because you can have someone who's objective about it.
Gwen McClendon: Hopefully.
Liz Goldwyn: Hopefully objective, hopefully trained in dealing with some of the questions that young people have around sex.
Gwen McClendon: Here's the thing, talking to your child, that's not real common today. How many words do you really say? What are you asking? What are you allowing them to ask in the classroom, at church? I ask questions and then I say to them, “I don't want a religious answer. I don't want you to say what you think I want to hear. I really want to know what you feel because I respect and I want to hear what's important to you.”
Liz Goldwyn: Why do you think that we use sex as a way to escape?
Gwen McClendon: Because it's the greatest place to escape. If you get good sexual outing, I don't think these Indian candy bars don't even compare to that and I love sweets. But again, as a Christian, I think whatever God made is good. And I keep telling people, “God made sex, hello to all you all who'll be talking of something different. He made it and he said everything he made was good.” But again, people don't want to deal with being authentic and they don't want to, bottom line, gut level talk about it. And until we can get real and honest with each other, we'll still have the mask.
Liz Goldwyn: How would you define sacred sex?
Gwen McClendon: When a man, in my opinion, when a man and woman are there for each other with differences in thought, behavior, actions, but their core belief is that I'm there to make you the best human that you could be, and make myself accessible to help you be that best person. And having a sexual relationship with that, that doesn't impose or abuse or shame me. But again, potentially makes me feel good, feel wanted, feel loved and valued. That to me would be sacred sex.
Liz Goldwyn: Can we reconcile having active, spiritual practice, whether that's defined as, well that's Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist, however we devote ourselves to God with an active sex life. Is that possible in your view?
Gwen McClendon: I think that was the intent. I just think we just, again, we've forgotten what the purpose was. God made sex for a reason, not just for procreation, but He dealt with it in terms of certain things in the Bible like Onid when he said, “Don't masturbate and leave your sperm on the ground,” because he valued that this is a creative force. So be responsible with it. The notches on the belt, i.e. and the girls too, with their things. But I think that what has been lost in the telling of the Christianity is the don't, and you cannot. Instead of saying, “This is a wonderful gift from God and handle it respectfully, reverently, you know. And have fun,” (laughs) because like I said, anything God made is good. But to me, keeping yourself in a celibate situation is that you're honoring and valuing your sexuality and it's not becoming common. That this is a wonderful, beautiful God-given gift and manage it well. That's how I feel about it.
Liz Goldwyn: Can you be celibate and masturbate? Is that allowed?
Gwen McClendon: Well, again, you got to know where my brain is. Someone just doesn't pull down their pants or pull things to the side of their panties, et cetera, and said, “I'm just going to masturbate.” There's some fantasy life going on in the head. So that's where I have a challenge with it because then-- and God never wanted us to have sex by ourselves. This is a community action. With the selfies and all the rest of it, the thing is that it's self-gratifying to a point but then what?
Liz Goldwyn: What are you still learning about sex?
Gwen McClendon: That I want some. (Both laugh)
Liz Goldwyn: How long have you been celibate?
Gwen McClendon: I can't even remember, that's how long it is.
Liz Goldwyn: Really?
Gwen McClendon: So that's what I'm saying also-
Liz Goldwyn: What would it take for you to stop?
Gwen McClendon: A good man that loves his mama that is not totally mother-wounded because I know that I'll get it. Because we do have things in common, we both have vaginas. But-
Liz Goldwyn: If you're listening.
Gwen McClendon: Oh God, I forgot other people are going to listen to this!
Liz Goldwyn: If you're listening, you can send me an email-
Gwen McClendon: Let me just say this, I've always been-
Liz Goldwyn: And a headshot.
Gwen McClendon: Okay. I've always been a pioneer, and this is what I want to say, many of my friends-- now I'm 70, actually, September 20th I'll be 71. And I'm a perfect example of black don't crack. Those can't see me of course, but-
Liz Goldwyn: It really doesn't and she hasn't.
Gwen McClendon: I kind of present 40-ish 50-ish and I have girlfriends that are just saying, “I don't really even care about it anymore.” I said, "You're lying." I said, "You want somebody to rub your feet or rub something else." I said, "But you just got acclimated to be by yourself and so you're kind of spinning that out," but I said, "Let the first Boaz,” as we were talking about the Boaz and Ruth in the Bible, “come and rub the right thing." I said her name so I'm not even trying to tell that lie. I'm just hopefully letting even women my age, men my age, who've had relationships that have failed or are widows, et cetera. It's a glorious thing to want to have a partner walk with you, love you and get a little sex on the side. Hallelujah.
Because like I said, and I believe it, that God gave sex as a gift and it's a good gift and anything that God made is good. It's just us who sometimes pervert it. And the other good thing about it also is I have come to a place in my life where I can be alone and not be depressed about being lonely because I have a community and I make sure that I seek to be involved and to stay involved as I continue to evolve.
Liz Goldwyn: What? (Gwen laughs) I can't wait to see what you do next then. Now thank you for coming on today and bless you.
Gwen McClendon: Thank you.
Liz Goldwyn: That was Gwen McClendon, sex educator. You can visit Gwen at Shabach Christian Fellowship Church in Los Angeles.
Thanks for listening to The Sex Ed. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts and be sure to visit us @thesexed.com. The Sex Ed is hosted by me, Liz Goldwyn. This episode was produced by Isley Grondy for The Media Mob. Jackie Wilson is our line producer. Jeremy Emery is our sound recordist and editor, and Bettina Santa Domingo is our coordinator. Louis Lazar made all of our music, including the track you're listening to right now. Until next time The Sex Ed remains dedicated to expanding your orgasmic health and sexual consciousness.