Erica Chidi Cohen
Podcast Transcript Season 1 Episode 13
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Liz Goldwyn: Hello. Welcome to The Sex Ed. I'm your host Liz Goldwyn, founder of thesexed.com, your number one source for sex, health, and consciousness education. Today I'm speaking with Erica Chidi Cohen, doula, author, and co-founder of Loom, an educational reproductive health center, here in Los Angeles. Through Erica's book, Nurture: A Modern Guide to Pregnancy, Birth, and Early Motherhood, as well as her practice, she's given thousands of pregnant people the tools to advocate for their own reproductive health and wellbeing.
In this episode, Erica and I cover her experiences working with pregnant inmates in the San Francisco prison system, what it means to be simultaneously a birth, miscarriage, and abortion doula, and why we need to speak openly about pre and postpartum sexuality.
Liz Goldwyn: (Both laughing) Thank you for being here.
Erica Chidi: You're welcome. So happy to be here.
Liz Goldwyn: So I'm going to bring it way back. Your dad is a doctor. Your mom is a nurse. So you were literally born into the healthcare field.
Erica Chidi: Yeah, (laughs) pretty much. I think my Saturdays with my dad consisted of going to the hospital to follow him around while he was doing rounds. It was in the 80s, so they still kind of let that happen. I wonder, it's probably a little different now. I probably would spend more time at the nurse's station than in the hospital rooms. But yeah, I just got to see a lot and kind of get very desensitized and more comfortable in a clinical setting, at a very young age. And I was always really voracious and wanted to know everything. So I think, yeah, I was exposed really early. And yeah, I'd go to the hospital. He'd do rounds. I'd follow him around, and then we'd go to the car wash and have McDonald's. That was kind of (laughs) the tradition.
And then my mom was a nurse and really gave me a lot of information about my body pretty early on. There was always kind of a comfort around what has now been coined as body literacy, in our home anyway, from a really early age, for me.
Liz Goldwyn: Can you explain to people who don't know what a doula is, what they do?
Erica Chidi: Yeah, so a doula essentially is a support person that can help people navigate different reproductive transitions. There are birth doulas that work with people during their pregnancy, and they attend the birth itself and kind of help you be able to stay calm and navigate, kind of any of the options that are coming up for you, kind of like your inner advocate. You are still going to make the choices yourself, but we're there to just kind of help keep you collected, you and your partner --if you have a partner-- we're doing a lot of education through the process.
Then there are postpartum doulas that work with people, usually for about the first 10 weeks, after they have a child. Just again, I like to call postpartum doulas kind of like sanity checkers. Where they are just normalizing a lot of things that are coming up, and kind of filling a role that was there in the community many, many, many years ago, where you would always have someone to tap into, to help, hands-on help with the baby, or just to check in about the physiological events that are happening in your body.
Then there also are doulas that work with people through things like miscarriages, abortions, or stillbirths. I also provide, and have provided, services for people in that respect, as well. Because, you know, again, all of those experiences are reproductive related. A lot of the same physiology is happening on a continuum, through all those experiences. And I really believe that people need emotional and educational support, regardless of what the outcome looks like. So that's kind of the range of ways that doulas work.
Liz Goldwyn: I had actually never heard of an abortion doula, until you were telling me you did that work. I think it's really fascinating because there's a sort of double standard of support needed during pregnancy, but then when you consider the devastation that one might face with a stillbirth or miscarriage, or even in making, you know, a difficult decision, often, to have an abortion, it makes perfect sense.
Erica Chidi: Yeah, definitely. You know, we had an event at Loom recently with Dr. Willie Parker, who is an abortionist that works mostly in the South, in states that have very limited access to abortion care, and I really loved how he encapsulated why abortion is-- why abortion needs support, and gave a really just modern way of looking at it. The fact is that abortion, getting an abortion for a lot of people is health-seeking behavior. You are not wanting to be pregnant because of a myriad of reasons. If you are approaching it, and if we start to look at it as health-seeking behavior, then it makes sense that there needs to be doula support. Why wouldn't you have doula support for health-seeking behavior?
And so, for me, whether it's an abortion that's happening under nine weeks, or if it's over nine weeks and it ends up having to be a D&C, which is a dilation and curettage, or if it's much later, a D&E, a dilation and evacuation, what's happening physiologically, whether it's the bleeding or the cramping, you know are all things that you want to be able to check in with somebody about and just express what's happening. There's all these, you know, allopathic things that you can do, to better support the body. There's no reason why that information should not be readily available, and also non-judgmentally delivered. I think that's a big part of what doulas, in that space, are doing. It's important work.
Liz Goldwyn: Right, because I imagine there's a million questions. "Is this normal?
Erica Chidi: Yeah.
Liz Goldwyn: “Am I supposed to feel like this?"
Erica Chidi: Totally, yeah.
Liz Goldwyn: So having another person there, to say, "Yes, it's totally normal. And in fact, I've worked with 100 clients before who've experienced X, Y, and Z." I'm wondering, how different is that work, of being a doula for a birth versus for miscarriage, stillborn, or abortion? Is there any similarities in the process?
Erica Chidi: I think there's a lot of similarities. Again, it differs in that when someone is miscarrying, there's a lot of questions about some of the lesser known physiological happenings. Like, "How much bleeding is too much? And I'm feeling more cramps now, less cramps.” And, you know, earlier, there's a lot of just going through and seeing what their symptoms are and just talking them through. And then just being there, holding space for them, as they're dealing with all of these physiological, or more so, uncomfortable physiological sensations. And then also just the emotional sensations, that are really challenging as well.
And so it's interesting, with a birth client, it's very similar. They're going through a rapid change, and having a lot of different physical and emotional sensations. You're there educating and holding space for that. When someone's having a miscarriage, it's very similar. If someone's having an abortion, for example, especially if they're going in for a dilation and curettage, which is a, you know, transvaginal procedure, where they're going to get benzodiazepines, they're going to have really intense medication to help them relax, and there's going to be a lot of activation and sensation in the uterus.
You know that is something that it's so helpful to have someone there holding your hand, which I've done many times, in that procedure. Just helping you stay calm and focus on your breath, focus on the parts of your body that you have some control over, and just, you know, being there. Which is very similar to what you do at a birth. You're just there. You're letting the, you know, experience pass, but, you know, creating a really good container for whoever is having the experience. There's a lot of commonality within the work, even though the experience for the person is very different.
Liz Goldwyn: Do you find any stigmatism in doing that work, of abortion doula?
Erica Chidi: Sure, sure. I mean, look, we live in a society that's still very much controlled by the patriarchy. And there is so much religiosity imbued in what I just described a few moments ago as health-seeking behavior. So people are uncomfortable about it, or don't like it, or think that we are, you know, evil, for, you know, again, being party to this experience. But I don't really care, you know? To me it's a choice that people are making, and I really believe in, you know, supporting people that are going through a medical experience, and giving them emotional support as they do that. Just like anything else, like diabetes or cancer or, you know, heart issues. Everybody deserves, you know, really good, evidence-based, nonjudgmental, emotional support for big life changes. And that's really how I see it.
Liz Goldwyn: I know when you were in San Francisco, you used to volunteer in the prison system, working with pregnant inmates. I'm really curious what you took away from that experience.
Erica Chidi: Well, you know, look, I think what's interesting is, at any given time, the stat might have shifted a bit, but it's usually under double digits, the amount of the population that's incarcerated, that is currently pregnant. So, you know, thinking about pregnant people in prison is not something that a lot of people give thought to, but they're there. And they're having this experience. And when you think about even if you have all of your creature comforts, how for so many people pregnancy is very uncomfortable. Imagine having so much-- having so many limitations, but still having to kind of go through the experience.
So I think, you know, what I took away from it, one, if you're never been inside of even a minimum security facility, just the feeling of checking in, signing in, walking through door after door after door closing behind you, and having these very intense exchanges, you know, with the clients that I would see. Then knowing that I could just get up and leave and go home. I think that really was profound, just like, "I get to go home, and you don't." And so just really feeling into the intensity of that experience.
And then also, how important education is. Even when you have limits on your personal freedom, you still can be freed through learning about what to anticipate and what to expect, and how to, even in the limited environment you're in, how to take care of yourself. So that was really what I took away, was just, you know, how important that education is, and just an understanding of just how separate-- the separation the incarceration system creates for-- within our culture.
Liz Goldwyn: Where does delivery take place?
Erica Chidi: So usually it takes place, because I think there are a few other projects like this around the country, but it's usually at a government hospital or a state hospital. And, because, you know, Department of Justice has to be involved, so a private hospital would not have the feasibility to kind of deal with all the constraints that the Department of Justice would have to have on the delivery. Because you can only have people that have clearance be in the room. One of the reasons why this project, the Birth Justice project, was started was because family members couldn't have clearance, but the doulas, as they went through all of the live scan and all of the clearance process, were able to be there, and by being there, help potentially improve what their birth experience could be like, whoever the person was that was birthing.
Liz Goldwyn: And then the baby gets taken away?
Erica Chidi: Well, typically the baby could go into child protection services, but if there's a larger, you know, kind of family network, the baby could go to the family. There was a lot of liaising to figure out where would the best place for the baby be. Again, it was a jail, as opposed to a prison, so a lot of these people were in there for kind of minimum offenses. So there's more short term or just not as egregious, so there could be more room to try and make sure that that child would be in the safest possible, or best possible, environment.
Liz Goldwyn: That's some heavy work.
Erica Chidi: Yeah. (Laughs)
Liz Goldwyn: How do you maintain your professional boundaries with some of these situations that you're coming into, that are very emotional?
Erica Chidi: Well I mean-- I-- (sighs) that's a really good question. No one's really asked me that before. I think a big part of it is that I'm always doing a lot of work on myself. You know, I think I'm learning more and more, even though I've always had a pretty aggressive self-care approach, that the harder I work, I have to work double as hard, to sure up and take care of myself. So whether it's therapy or acupuncture or, you know, Pilates. Whatever these things are, I'm a super kinetic person. I really move my body. I used to sing, many years ago, and so I-- resonance and movement is really important to me.
Liz Goldwyn: Getting all that stuck energy out.
Erica Chidi: Yeah. Yeah! Getting the stuck energy out, whether moving my body with-- either through dance or singing or sex, or whatever it is, I really try to do the work, so I'm not just blindly going in and, you know, being a total sponge. And if I am absorbing, I'm wringing out somewhere.
Liz Goldwyn: Wondering what, if there is any sort of singular, or two or three, biggest concerns that you see repeatedly, over the pregnant people you're servicing?
Erica Chidi: One of the biggest issues I hear or see is myth overload. There's a lot of just cultural myths that we've attached to pregnancy that are really pervasive.
Liz Goldwyn: Like what?
Erica Chidi: You know, you know, if I eat, you know, sushi, it's going to be really bad for my pregnancy. Or like, is it okay for me to have coffee? Or, you know… I'm trying to think of some other ones.
Liz Goldwyn: Sex? Do people ask you about sex?
Erica Chidi: Exactly, like, "Can I have sex? Will it hurt the baby?" Things like that, that prior to the concern or myth being uttered, there's a whole bunch of mental activation going on, and kind of anxiety around it. Which I wish could be curtailed with just better information being put out there. Which is why, with my book Nurture, I really worked hard to try and debunk a lot of myths. You know with Loom and our classes, we're trying to kind of do the same thing. So I think myth overload is one.
And I think the other kind of issue, and I dont-- I wouldn't necessarily classify it as an issue, but I think it's more of like a struggle, is just how and what my clients and my students want their birth outcome to be. Just because our birthing culture in the States is so polarized. There's definitely this pedestalization of vaginal delivery, un-medicated delivery, and this kind of demonization of cesarean birth, and also this maybe demonization of medicated deliveries, or using an epidural.
Which I think is, you know, totally inane, especially because our culture in the United States is so demanding, and it is especially for pregnant people. A lot of people are getting pregnant later, and the later you get pregnant, the more likelihood there is of interventions. Which means that, you know, putting vaginal deliveries and un-medicated births on a pedestal really is discounting a lot of the reality of how a lot of people are going to deliver. And so, you know, I'm always trying to tell people that, one, a birth is a birth is a birth. Obviously physiologically and empirically, there are going to be benefits to a spontaneous, you know, low intervention, no intervention vaginal delivery. Fine, that's all good. But if you have to have a cesarean birth, or you choose to use an epidural, that's okay.
And the most important thing is actually having a well-rounded education of what all these options are going to look like, so you can move into the experience with a sense of autonomy and what I like to call educated ambivalence. Because as long as you can stay smooth and kind of not pulled in any specific direction, but understanding the ins and outs of whatever direction you might go, it allows you to just kind of lean into your body and lean into your intuition, and kind of just go with the experience. Because birth is so fluid. We really don't know where it's going to go.
Liz Goldwyn: So there's no best birthing technique, whether it's water birthing, or at home, or at the hospital.
Erica Chidi: Well, it's not necessarily best. I think also, the other thing to keep in mind, too, is there's a socioeconomic component that plays into this, you know. The ability to, you know, qualify to birth at home and use water birth, you know, has a lot to do with the way you live. You need to not have diabetes. You need to be of a certain age. You need to be healthy. And health in this country costs money, and so to be glorifying this idea of unmedicated, out-of-hospital experiences-
Liz Goldwyn: It's expensive.
Erica Chidi: It's expensive, except for maybe if you live in New Mexico. There's certain states where-- and there are certain coalitions and midwives who work within MediCal, for example, in California, or they work within whatever government insurance system is, so they can provide that sort of care to people that sit in a lower income bracket, that are wanting that experience, and that qualify for that, health-wise, to have that experience.
I think for most people, they're probably going to be birthing in a hospital. That should not be vilified, when that's an easy onboarding experience for a lot of people. The idea, really, is just making the best of whatever situation you're in.
Liz Goldwyn: There's so many neurological and hormonal changes, both pre- and post birth, for the person delivering, which can be rather isolating for someone, and can also affect relationships between partners. So I'm wondering if Loom provides postpartum group classes for couples, and also, where can people across the country or the globe find information or classes online, or near them?
Erica Chidi: There are so many changes that are happening emotionally and hormonally. At Loom, we have a program called Plus Baby. We have Mother Plus Baby and then Family Plus Baby, where, kind of over the course of the first year, in kind of eight week segments, mothers can come with their baby and receive a lot of this kind of developmentally appropriate information about what's going on with their baby. But then also the facilitator, specifically Nicole Makowka, who we love very much, is a therapist and kind of helps guide the group through the emotional plane, as well.
So our focus really, in terms of our parenting pathway at Loom, is really looking at the parent. We think that the healthier and more capable and more emotionally calibrated the parent is, the easier their parenting will be. You know, it's not so much reading about how to be a parent. It's actually just how to be your best self, and that's kind of where you'll divine all of your parenting energy.
Then Family Plus Baby is for couples. They can come together and experience the same curriculum. That's really what we have currently. In terms of an online option, you know, we're working really hard to kind of move into that digital space because we realize that there is a big need for the type of education that we're doing, all over the world. So we're kind of working on that.
Right now, in terms of a digital option, I can't really think of anything that would be super helpful, in terms of from an educative standpoint. In terms of a book, there's a really great book by Dr. Oscar Serrallach called The Postnatal Depletion Cure, that really talks about the hormonal and just the physiological changes, but it's interesting, he explores what's going to happen and how you can kind of circumvent it, but then also it gives a really nice picture of what can happen relationally. I think it's a great book for partners of a pregnant person to read, in order to kind of anticipate, or just, you know, in the midst of everything that's going on, be able to find some solutions.
Liz Goldwyn: Because I think a lot of people get so excited that they're having a baby, that this discussion of, "How is this going to affect our relationship with each other? How is it going to affect our sex life? How is it going to affect our sexual desire in the short and longterm? Should we be considered about a lack of libido?" Are really not discussed, until well after that baby is born, and then a couple is maybe in their first year of parenting, and, "Oh shit, we haven't had sex in a year."
Erica Chidi: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that happens all the time. And I think, you know, we talk about it in our classes at Loom, and I talk about it whenever I can is that for the pregnant person after delivery, if they're choosing to breastfeed or chest-feed, the hormones that control the ejection reflex of breastfeeding or chest-feeding is the same hormone that controls an orgasm --so oxytocin is one of the primary hormones that are involved-- so when you're constantly having oxytocin roll through your system all day, if you're choosing to exclusively breastfeed, or even if you're not, even if you're exclusively pumping, it really lowers your drive or desire to engage in sex, whether it's penetrative or not penetrative.
So if your partner is aware of that prenatally, it helps. And if you're aware of that yourself, that if we're making this choice to want to breastfeed or chest-feed our child, there is going to be literally a hormonal downswing that's going to make me feel like I'm touched out and that I'm not really needing that dose of oxytocin, in the same way I used to. So it's always a conversation to just really encourage both people in the relationship to kind of reach across the kind of flood of oxytocin that's reaching the (laughs) person that's doing the feeding, to try and find space to connect sexually.
Liz Goldwyn: Is there any sort of standard of how soon people can be having sex, post birth?
Erica Chidi: I mean, there's variability to that. Most clinicians are going to recommend, you know, six weeks or so, but some people find that their desire comes back much sooner than that. And if their postpartum bleeding has reduced significantly enough that it's not so much of an issue, and they didn't have any major suturing or tearing at all during the delivery, some people are back, you know, at it at like three weeks. It just depends. But the safe-- kind of the safety guidelines are around six weeks or so.
Liz Goldwyn: What about if someone didn't have to use lubricant before birth but now does?
Erica Chidi: Totally, yeah. That's a really normal thing. Because there can be just less vaginal wetness, after delivery, and sometimes even during pregnancy. So I'm just a big fan of lube in general, just because we live in a super stressful world, which can make it harder for some of us to get lubricated. And so I'm all about just putting some there, whether you kind of need it or not, and then helping to kind of facilitate more comfortable sex, penetrative sex, anyway. Because, you know, those tissues are going to feel a little bit more tender.
Liz Goldwyn: So we get this question a lot. I hear it all the time. Will having a baby stretch the vagina out?
Erica Chidi: Yeah, of course. It's going to stretch it out, but it is not permanent. So what's interesting is, especially when people think about tearing during labor, there's always this feeling like you're going to look down at your vagina and like see a zip afterwards. That's what I think a lot of the cultural understanding is. The vaginal mucosa is like the inside of your mouth. So if you like just rubbed your hand inside your cheek-- or finger inside of your cheek, that's kind of what it feels like inside. Imagine if you were to tear your cheek, or you've burnt your cheek before. It's a moist environment, so the wound healing time is more rapid and a little bit more sophisticated. It's not the same as if you, like, scraped your knee or something like that. Anyway, that's tearing.
In terms of the tissue, the vagina is typically a flat muscular tube, but it has an accordion-like nature to it. It's actually built to stretch and expand and then to contract back. So there can be this feeling of less tone and a little bit of a deviation or change in shape, but more than likely, the shift is not that intense that it's going to be noticeable forever. Maybe for the first maybe year or two, but over time, will continue to tonify and kind of come back. There's exercises that you can do-
Liz Goldwyn: Your Kegels.
Erica Chidi: Like Kegels, and, you know, just general working out as well. Again, you want to make sure that you are trying to do that after any maybe more acute issues have been dealt with, whether it's urinary incontinence or stress incontinence, or if there's been any bladder prolapse or anything like that. Those issues have to be dealt with, prior to being able to do any real strengthening.
Liz Goldwyn: There seems to be a lot of cultural shaming of post birth vaginas, or vaginas in general, with this plastic surgery to the vagina, vaginoplasty. I'm wondering what you think of this trend.
Erica Chidi: Well, myy thing, and this is probably a much longer conversation, but I am really in support of female identified people, or people that have previously-- who have previously been pregnant, to do whatever they feel like they need to do, to feel comfortable in their body. I have a pretty feminist approach to just body modification in general. So for me, if your desire to have your vagina look the way that it did previously, or feel the way that it felt previously, because that's something that you want, and although maybe via osmosis it's come through culturally, but it's going to make you feel better, I'm not going to be your detractor. I'm just going to encourage you to do whatever you need to do, to find wholeness.
That's kind of my opinion on that, and I feel very similarly about, you know, Botox or fillers or plastic surgery. To me, it's about choice. If someone is doing it within the range of what is medically safe and normal, I don't really have a problem with it. Just ‘cause that’s-- I don't like to vilify people for wanting to take the best care of themselves, whatever they think is going to be best for them.
Liz Goldwyn: It is a-- it can be a tricky procedure, though, that can potentially affect one's ability to orgasm.
Erica Chidi: Of course.
Liz Goldwyn: So that's something that I think people need to really be aware of, when they look into this. Just the same way that breast augmentation can affect the sensation in your breasts. So just FYI, if you're considering vaginoplasty, make sure you do a lot of research.
Erica Chidi: Research, yes. So that I 100% agree with. I think more just from a, kind of a psychological standpoint, I don't like to push and deter people in any particular direction, but in terms of just knowing what's safe and understanding the risks, 100% there's a lot of risks that are there.
Liz Goldwyn: How important do you think breastfeeding is?
Erica Chidi: I think, physiologically, we know that breast milk, or human milk, or chest milk, or however you want to describe it, has a lot of dynamism. And so by that I mean it's constantly changing its caloric content, its, you know, immunological components, and its hormonal-
Liz Goldwyn: Can you explain what immunological means?
Erica Chidi: Anything that helps to boost or support the immune system. So antiviral, antibodies, all of that. And it's also constantly changing its hormonal properties. Breast milk has sex hormones in it, to help the child develop in whichever direction it's supposed to develop. It's constantly shifting all the time, to meet the exact needs of the child. Whereas formula, as much as it's going to, you know, help your baby to grow, put on weight, develop, it's not a dynamic fluid. It's just always going to have the static, set amount of ingredients. For some people, that's totally fine.
But when we think about why do we want to push for breastfeeding, or chest feeding, why do we put human milk on some kind of pedestal, it's because of that dynamic component. So, you know, when you're trying to make the decision, I always think that a little bit of human milk is better than none at all. If you only do three weeks, that's fuckin' rad. If you do like two years, three years, that's rad, too. It's just doing the best you can with the situation that you're currently in, and knowing that your child is going to thrive either way. But one fluid does have more dynamism than the other.
Liz Goldwyn: How can postpartum depression affect sexual desire?
Erica Chidi: Well, I mean, it's the same question of how does depression affect desire. You know when you are in-- I will say the addition there, with postpartum depression or any postpartum mood disorder, and just sex is that, unlike typical depression, there is a new child present, who has a lot of needs. And there is very little space for you to be able to process, really, what you are really experiencing, because that parent/baby diad is set up, and that becomes a focus. A lot of it is what does the child need, what does the child need? So sometimes it can be harder to get to a diagnosis for yourself because you're spending so much time focusing on the baby, which is totally understandable. But I think postpartum depression and how it impacts the sex drive, when you don't have a lot of time for yourself and so trying to prioritize sex, or even make it happen, it becomes very challenging.
You're also not getting consolidated sleep, because whether you are giving your child human milk or you are bottle-feeding with formula, you're waking up numerous types throughout the night to feed your baby. And, you know, when you don't get good sleep, we know that sleep hygiene is so key for mental health. If sleep is not happening, your primary concerns are no longer really yourself, at least in the first year or so. You're really just trying to make sure you're taking care of your baby. Sex can really just be last, or just not even be a, you know, a tertiary concern. So I think just the intensity of the needs, that can really just create a lack of interest in sex.
And also, depending on where the depression is emanating from, whether it's just kind of task overwhelm, like not being able to keep up with everything that's needed for the baby, maybe that type of postpartum depression might still create some availability or interest in sex. But if it's body orientated or just kind of self-esteem orientated, that might-- that really could obviously impact it, as well.
Liz Goldwyn: What are we not addressing culturally about pregnancy, particularly when it comes to race?
Erica Chidi: Women of color are more likely than our white counterparts to die in childbirth. And I think-- and I actually just started reading this book about race and identity and the history of obstetrics in the United States. And so what we have to realize is the impact of slavery and the advancement of medicine in this country, and how black bodies were used experimentally, and how black bodies were seen to better withstand pain and not need as much intervention, and that a lot of those tropes have maintained their grip, whether in a covert or an overt sense, with care providers.
And so when we think about the impact of things like institutionalized racism, you know there is this experience that someone that looks like me, if they're unable to advocate for themselves, and even if they are, are going to experience lower quality care, just because of this deep-seeded understanding that people that are black don't need as much assistance, or people that are black are lesser than.
And even someone with the best laid intentions, unless they have checked their biases, are going to be operating that way. It might be subtle. It might be the difference between, you know, a little bit of a better epidural being administered than not, or doing a triple check of postpartum bleeding in the first 10 or 12 hours after delivery. It's very small, but it makes a huge impact because, you know, birth is considered to be a very normal physiological event that should take place kind of without a hitch. So to pick up on the things that are going wrong, or could go wrong, requires a lot more attention that what we have now seen that black women are experiencing.
I think there just needs to be more conversations about this and more awareness, on all sides. I think it's one of the reasons why I really feel that black women, and women of color in general, really do need doulas. They need advocates for themselves. They need the education, in order to be able to navigate what is, you know, inherently a not supportive or permissive environment for women like us.
Liz Goldwyn: You were telling me something interesting the other night, in advance of your conversation with Dr. Willie Parker at Loom, who again, as you mentioned previously, is an abortion provider in the South. And you were telling me a little bit of the history of the battle between, you know, pro choice and pro life dovetailed with the Civil Rights movement.
Erica Chidi: Yeah. So for those that don't really know this, there's a really good Netflix documentary out now called Reversing Roe, that talks about the relationship between the evangelical right and where we are now, in terms of just the abortion narrative. The focus for the evangelical right was segregation, kind of at the end of Civil Rights, and they wanted to try and make sure that segregation could still take place in their schools and even in their churches. And when that was not able to withstand, they turned their attention to abortion.
So in many ways, the, kind of the war on abortion is a newer thing. If you look 200 years ago, there wasn't this much uproar, or interest really, in how abortion functioned. It was just another medical procedure that was under family planning. So when we think about that, it makes sense that there is such a fervor around this issue, because the people that brought it to prominence were people that had a lot of bigotist, myopic thinking. Those people tend to speak lower, have more resources, and are able to push narratives forward that are, you know, are harmful.
Liz Goldwyn: My last question for you, Erica, is what are you still learning about sex?
Erica Chidi: Oh, I'm learning things all the time. (Laughs) I feel like we are on a learning continuum with sex. And so as a person who really stepped into their queer identity a lot later in life, I think I'm learning more about what I like and what I don't like. And I just-- the body-- and I think for women in our 30s, I think you just start to move more into your, kind of sexual prime, and also for me, I feel like into my sexual curiosity. And so I'm just constantly reading and constantly trying out new things. And I feel so fortunate that I get to teach a sex class at Loom, where I get to kind of share with other women what I have learned and encourage them to not stop learning about sex.
‘Cause it's funny, I think for most of our lives, there's definitely this permission around, "Yeah, like, learn how to throw, like, pots and ceramics and knitting, like, take a dance class." But there's not a lot of permission around take a sex class, keep reading about sex, and it's just like anything else.
Liz Goldwyn: Thanks for being here.
Erica Chidi: Thank you for having me.
Liz Goldwyn: You can find Erica teaching and seeing clients at Loom, where she focuses on periods, sex positivity, fertility, and pregnancy. For more information about Erica and her organization Loom, go to thisisloom.com. On Instagram, she is @thisisloom.
Thanks for listening to The Sex Ed. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to visit us at thesexed.com.
The Sex Ed is hosted by me, Liz Goldwyn. Jeremy Emery is our sound recordist and editor, and our production coordinator is Justin D.M. Palmer. Louis Lazar made all of our music, including the track you're listening to right now. Until next time, The Sex Ed remains dedicated to expanding your orgasmic health and sexual consciousness.