Season 3 Finale: Celibacy
Podcast Transcript Season 3 Episode 51
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Illustration BY Black Women Animate
What do you imagine when you hear the word celibacy? A monk taking a vow of chastity? Someone denying themselves pleasure? Do you imagine someone saving themselves for marriage or God? Do you think that if you go too long without penetrative sex, you’ll grow cobwebs? Do you consider celibacy the absence of all orgasms - including masturbation? Have you ever gone through a period of self-imposed celibacy? For our season three finale, Liz dives deep into the topic of Celibacy with the help of some friends: Dr. Kate Lister, Shan Boodram, Weezy & Mandii of the Whoreible Decisions Podcast, Money Mark, Carolyn Murphy, Ramy Youssef, Bebe Buell, Mykki Blanco, Joanna Angel, Riley Reid, Kenneth Play, Justin Simien, Brianda Agramonte, and Alessandro Michele.
The following is a transcript of the interview from the episode:
Liz Intro:
Hello, and welcome to the season 3 finale of The Sex Ed!
I’m Liz Goldwyn, your host and the founder of The Sex Ed, your #1 source for sex, health, and consciousness education. On our website TheSexEd.com, you can read original essays written by our network of experts, watch live talks and videos, listen to past episodes of this podcast, and sign up for our weekly newsletter. You can also follow us on Instagram @TheSexEd.
The Sex Ed is postively orgasmique to be partnered with GUCCI for your listening pleasure on this season of this podcast. That’s right, oh yes, GUCCI baby! We’re so grateful to GUCCI for sponsoring this episode and helping us answer everything you wanted to know about sex, but were afraid to ask.
When I say the word celibacy, what do you imagine? A monk taking a vow of chastity? Someone denying themselves pleasure? Do you think of incels posting misogynistic threads to Reddit in the dark? Do you imagine someone saving themselves for marriage or God? Do you think that if you go too long without penetrative sex, you’ll grow cobwebs? Do you consider celibacy the absence of all orgasms - including masturbation? Have you ever gone through a period of self-imposed celibacy? And I’m not just talking about within the last few months as the world has retreated into quarantine amid fears of COVID-19.
I’ve been thinking about celibacy for a while now as a healthy opportunity to be more conscious about the sex I have. I’ve gone through several periods of self-imposed celibacy, both when going through a divorce from my partner of 13 years when I was 32 and even more recently after a breakup. This allows me to be very clear in my intentions and relationships, and really consider whether I’m using sex to fill a void.
I’ve found it interesting to observe how often people conflate how much sex you’re having as a value judgment on self worth. How many times has a casual acquaintance asked, “who are you sleeping with?” or, “who are you seeing?” Have you ever felt ashamed because the answer was “myself?”
Here at The Sex Ed we want to encourage people to be open and accepting of other people’s choices - whether that means polyamory, sex parties, fetish, or yes, the choice to take a break.
With isolation and quarantines, it looks as though a lot more of us have now gone through unexpected periods of celibacy. I hope this episode helps you expand your personal definition of what celibacy is and how it can be useful at times for a reset.
In this episode, you’ll hear conversations I’ve had with many of the guests on this season of the podcast along with other friends of The Sex Ed. I’m going to thank them now as their stories are not delineated by name within this episode.
Lots of appreciation for the following people who shared their vulnerability with me: Dr. Kate Lister, Shan Boodram, Weezy & Mandii of the Whoreible Decisions Podcast, Money Mark, Carolyn Murphy, Ramy Youssef, Bebe Buell, Mykki Blanco, Joanna Angel, Riley Reid, Kenneth Play, Justin Simien, Brianda Agramonte, and Alessandro Michele.
So sit back, relax, and try not to get too turned on!
Guest 1:
In Western cultures, celibacy, self-imposed celibacy, is very much tied-in with faith, in that the Christian Church, is you are denying yourself a kind of a pleasure, and that's a form of devotion. But in, for example, in Taoism and some tantric teachings, the idea is not to be celibate, but it's just not to ejaculate, so that's how they believe that a man would rev up his life-force was to have sex with loads of people, as many as he can, but never ever ejaculate. That's when they believe that this was a really, really powerful thing.
The priests, the Catholic medieval priests, weren't always celibate. That was a rule that was brought around about the 12th century, I think, and it was deeply unpopular then. But, yeah, it's been linked very much to a denial in the West, I think, unless you're a woman of course, and then celibacy and chastity are viewed as the highest moral aspiration that you could possibly attain, being a virgin, the virgin, yeah.
Liz:
It's really interesting to hear what people have to say about that, or how they view that word, that it's like the idea that to be sexual, or to be constantly having sex is linked to prowess.
Guest 1:
Yeah, I mean, that's very true, that's very true, and that's kind of an idea has been enforced for a very long time as well, the idea that if you're not having sex, that, that is also a bad thing unless it's done for devotional reasons.
When Henry the Eighth couldn't consummate his marriage with ... I think it was Katherine Parr, Catherine Howard, he actually had the doctor read out a note to the houses of parliament to say that the king can still get erections, so it wasn't his fault.
Yeah, there's still real shame attached to not being able to have sex, or not having sex.
Guest 1:
What’s been your relationship with celibacy? Have you ever gone through periods of celibacy?
Occasionally I take a look at myself and just go, "You need to stop fucking idiots, Kate, just for a bit." I do that. It doesn't last very long.
Guest 2:
I think in my 20s, I mean shit, I was in a long-term relationship that was monogamous that was sexless. So, that was not self-imposed. It was just, I don't know, some type of manipulation. But I've definitely gone through periods of celibacy. In my 20s, like I said, I definitely chose years to take off just to learn more, get to know myself, find out what I like, take more care in choosing a partner who I felt could reflect those choices back to me. And it was great for me, so I think that it's awesome.
I'm a fan of anybody who has put some thought into this shit. You know what I mean? I think so much of us are on autopilot of, you'll just know, it'll just happen. Chemistry just comes, it'll just click. Anybody who is like, no, I'm not just doing this. I'm not just finding my life partner, I'm not just fucking somebody just because. I'm actually thinking about what's best for me, I'm aligning myself with people who mirror that back. I have a strategy in place. I know what I want, and yes, of course there's some wiggle room in there. But ultimately, I'm not just walking through this purposelessly.
So, anybody who is making a strong decision for themself, whether that is, I am a prude, that's what's best for me. I am celibate, I am non-monogamous, I am into kink. I love anybody who can really sit down and say, "I've thought about this. I've put some research forward, and here's what's best for me."
Guest 3:
I think that my celibacy has been induced through heartbreak and it's not necessarily always an act of choice, of me thinking like, "Yeah, I'm going to do this to cleanse my spirit or my soul or heal." It's just it happens to me and then I stick it out. It's always like by circumstance. I know that I've had some private discussions with you where you've told me you've made the active choice. But mine has never happened that way. I think as a hyper sexual person I'm always looking at sex and thinking about sex everywhere. And to be honest, for my self-esteem sex is necessary even when it's alone. I need to feel sexual and feel sexy. So when I have gone through celibacy or made that choice after being heartbroken, then I was able to connect a little bit deeper with myself. But it never was this thing that I wanted to do. It's like it happened to me, if that makes sense.
Liz:
Well when you say after a heartbreak, what do you mean?
Guest 3:
Well, I've found that through certain breakups or through heartbreak that okay it's going to be hard for me to have sex with anyone else, so I need to be celibate until I feel like I'm over this moment. Because then I'm just going to be having sex to cover the pain up. It's like we wrap it in a blanket and think that sex is going to solve those feelings or make us feel better, which it doesn't. I'm not a big rebound sex person. I've never found it to be helpful or healthy. So that's when I've made my choice through heartbreak, is when I've started celibacy.
Liz:
That's what I've done when I've started celibacy too. What's the longest that you've ever gone during those periods?
Guest 3:
I'd say eight months was the longest. It was supposed to be six and it got to eight.
Liz:
Why was it supposed to be six? That was a self-imposed number that you had?
Guest 3:
Yeah. I was like, "Oh, I'm not going to be able to go without sex so I'm going to give it six months. That's my goal." And then I really couldn't find somebody to fuck until eight. But I think that number that I gave myself was me thinking it was far enough to where I wouldn't be able to obtain it but easy enough to where I could. I felt like a year was unreasonable. And six months was just right. I always have believed that thing from Sex and the City where Charlotte told Carrie, "It takes half the time you've been with someone to get over them." And that person had been a year of dating. And I was like, "Fuck, it's going to take six months." And it didn't just take six months, it took eight.
Liz:
Oh my God. I definitely didn't go celibate for this long but my ex husband who I was with for 13 years, I remember asking Dita all the time like, "Are we sure about that half the time number? Is this really going to take me six and a half years to get over?"
Guest 3:
Did it?
Liz:
Yeah, longer. It really did I'm not going to lie. It's hard because that's over a decade of my life with one person. That's interesting that you've picked a specific amount of time. I would say that's exactly the same as I've done. I wouldn't say that I've put a time on it but it's been preceded by a breakup normally. When I've gone through periods of celibacy, I still masturbate. I could even hook up with someone potentially, just not I don't engage in penetration. Because I feel like it's such a personal definition, like what celibacy is.
Guest 3:
Yeah. I went on some dates just to feel like I quote unquote still had it. But I completely agree. I think that masturbation doesn't necessarily coincide. And I think that when we think of someone being totally celibate we have this image of a nun who can't do anything. And that was what I kind of had to learn towards the end. "Oh, I can be sexy and sexual but not have sex."
Liz:
What was the biggest lesson that you learned from one of these periods of celibacy you've gone through, like the eight month period.
Guest 3:
Yeah, that eight month period through celibacy, it taught me, I think I just said it, that I can be sexual. The first few months I wasn't even taking care of myself. No shaving, just regular grooming that would make me feel good or feminine. And through the end of it I realized that I could gain pleasure in other ways. And I also was way more hyper sensitive to touch. I would think now if I went to my partner's apartment and he touched me all over and kissed me, it wouldn't as been as special as when I was celibate. I felt like I was almost brinking orgasm by touch. I never got there, but I just was very appreciative of that.
Liz:
Did your friends shame you for this choice or were they supportive?
Guest 3:
At first I think they were supportive and then I think they were all confused because they were just like, a lot of people viewed me that I told being celibate as like you're doing it for a man. And it was this attitude of get back on that horse, you know what I mean? And I don't think I was necessarily comfortable in admitting what I was doing it for, either. I very rarely talk about it on my podcast to be honest because I'm still confused of why I did it. But it was an act of choice once I was in it. I even journaled about it. Like, "Week 19, God damn."
Liz:
I feel like that's such a common refrain, "The only way to get over someone is to get under someone." But I've never been able to do that. I look at friends of mine who are really able to separate their head from their heart or their pussy from their heart from their head, and I can't at all. I don't know how to do that.
Guest 3:
I think that you are a... I don't know, just even when meeting you, the way that you talk to people. You look them in their eyes, you're very in tune with your emotions. So I get it for you. You know what I mean? You don't take me as somebody that'd be super lackadaisical about sex at all. I think that even when being playful about sex it's still meaningful to you. I find myself to be one of those people too, though.
Liz:
You definitely are.
Guest 3:
I can't just fuck you to fuck you. It depends. It's got to be the energy. I know what I sound like, but I mean it. I sound like Burning Man, that's what I sound like.
Liz:
You sound like the kind of girl who will go to a Kundalini class.
Guest 3:
I am.
Liz:
And also I'm curious if you've ever heard this phrase, I'm sure you've heard this phrase, "Don't go too long or it'll grow cobwebs," or "It'll close up down there." Which is also... What?
Guest 3:
My mom said that to me when I admitted to her that I was being celibate. She's like, "Your eggs, they're going to dry up." And at the time I'm like, "Mom, I'm 25. What the fuck are you talking about?" And then another month went by and my mom knows I'm bi. We were sitting on the phone. I'll never forget it. I was cooking in my apartment and she got quiet for a second and she goes, "If you want to be with women, just adopt." That's all her focus is, is grandkids. She's like, "If you don't use it you're going to lose it."
I also think people can't expect that out of someone like me. They know me as this sexual girl and so they're like, "What?" You know what I mean? People don't look at celibacy, some people I'm saying, don't look at celibacy as a journey into discovering yourself more than they do a pity party.
Liz:
So you were telling me that when I say celibacy to you and ask you for what, how you define it, it makes you think of being on tour.
Guest 4:
Yeah, it really makes me think of being on tour, and maybe it's those long tours that when I was younger it was like there were tours that were six weeks long, and I was in a relationship and I was kind of going out of my mind, at that time I was in like deep love with this person too. So, I guess that's up to the idea of being away, and being celibate. But it wasn't voluntary. It wasn't voluntary, so does that count? I don't know. You're the expert.
Liz:
But you were masturbating on tour?
Guest 4:
I was masturbating. The other thing that was happening was, I was putting a lot of energy into my performance too on stage. So, I kind of replaced those two things. And maybe that's what people do when they are voluntarily celibate, is they put their energy somewhere else. I don't know if it's sexual energy, but it's kind of this, I don't know what kind of bottled up energy that could be, but-
Liz:
Is this like tour with the Beastie Boys at the height of their fame when there's tons of groupies around?
Guest 4:
it wasn't crazy being on tour with the Beastie Boys at all. It was pretty tame actually. And everybody was in a relationship, and I think it was that we all kind of had kind of like minded thinking. So, we're actually trying to check, check each other. And not that it's like a bad thing if you're not in a relationship. But yeah, there was some crew people who were not in relationships, and I noticed that that was happening there.
Meaning, there was lots of like one night stands, but for me personally, I would just be doing, phone sex, masturbating, and putting my energy, that energy that I had in me in my performance. I don't know if you saw any of my shows? If you saw any of my shows, I was like jumping like a fucking crazy man.
Liz:
Did you, so that was the only time that you've been voluntarily celibate was when you went on tour?
Guest 4:
So, you would call that voluntary celibacy, huh?
Liz:
Well, I guess that was the only time you've had any experience with celibacy is when you went on tour. You never went through any point in your life like heartbreak or otherwise where you just thought or even a dry spell-
Guest 4:
Yeah, there is like heartbreak, and there's that moment of not even being able to think of anything. Right? And I couldn't even get an erection, even if I wanted to or I wasn't even masturbating. Yeah, you're right. I don't know who doesn't go through that or I don't know how people deal with it. Like some people, maybe they oversex themselves. I was like totally under sexing myself at that time.
Oh, and you mentioned dry spell. There's been countless times, I mean dozens, and dozens, and dozens of times where I would rather masturbate than have sex with a person. So, I don't know if that counts either.
Liz:
Just because you weren't attracted to anybody or?
Guest 4:
Well, there was times when, okay, early when I was growing up, I was like, I would just have sex with someone if they wanted to have sex. So cool. And then later I felt like, what am I doing if I'm not really connecting with this person? And it was kind of empty sex, is that what they call it? But I just felt that there wasn't any like value to it, and I would just rather masturbate and call it a day. And I wasn't really trying to like hurt people's feelings, but maybe that happens sometimes. And it actually happened to me too, where someone didn't want to have sex with me, but it wasn't like who knows what it is. Right? Sometimes it's like pheromones or just the smell of someone or who knows. It's like kind of mysterious there. But yeah, a dry spell is I guess if that counts, then yes.
Liz:
Well, effectively what you're describing is choosing to masturbate over having empty sex. And not everybody thinks that way. A lot of people would rather have empty sex than be alone.
Guest 4:
Yeah. Well, I don't think that for me personally, the time after this experience, when it didn't feel right and it felt like almost kind of felt ugly in a way, but it was like, "I don't want to feel that experience. I would rather not feel that experience." And like I said, it's probably happened to me too. You know, I've been on the other end of it.
Guest 5:
I've been celibate in between the majority of my relationships. I think the maximum time I've gone, actually not too long ago, was four and a half years. I might've had one other time that was five years of not having sex. And I think even this last go around of almost four and a half years it wasn't even contact with, in my choice it's men. And so I didn't have any contact with a man, not even a kiss. But yeah, a lot of masturbation just because I want to please myself and there's other ways to do that. There's toys and contraptions and things that are involved to get that energy flowing. So I feel like there's definitely a couple different aspects to the energy of that kind of going inward and sometimes with lucid dreaming. And then there's toys and contraptions.
Liz:
What kind of contraptions? What are these contraptions you speak of?
Guest 5:
A contraption could be a shower head. It's definitely not the edge of a sofa arm or something. You have to get creative sometimes. Sometimes if I'm traveling and I have forgotten one of my toys, or sometimes I go in these zones where I'm just like okay that's it, I'm not doing anything. I want to see how long I can hold the energy without giving in to that desire. And I don't mean that in a deprivation way. For me it's all about energy. It's just all about energy. And while I do miss that human exchange and the touch and that vibrational energy, I can get it from no pun intended, the vibrator. But sometimes you've got to get creative.
Liz:
People would look at you and you're a supermodel, you travel all over the world. I think that there's probably a lot of misconceptions of how much sex you're having. Have you found yourself on the end of judgment by other people, either friends or potential love interests when you say I'm celibate, I'm not having sex? Or is that something you keep private?
Guest 5:
It doesn't really come up that often. And if it does, the reactions are quite funny. Sometimes you get the wide eyes like, "Oh my God how could you do that." The reactions I find more entertaining. I could care less what people think. And I think we all have our ways of dealing with our sexuality and it ebbs and it flows. But I would say the reaction is mostly like, "Why would you do that?"
And then there's also the other aspect where a lot of my girlfriends say, "Well you've got to open that up. You've got to get the energy flowing. In fact the only way that you're going to magnetize that partner and that sexual partner is if you get the energy flowing." And I have to remind them well I'm not at a loss for finding somebody to have sex with. This is something that I'm choosing and it's not even in a closed down, shut down way. I just have a lot of other ways that I'm fulfilling myself right now. I think that's usually the shocker for people. They're like, "What do you mean you're fulfilling yourself in other ways?" And I don't think it's always about the act of sex or masturbation. There's so many other enlightened ways that I meet my needs, if that makes any sense.
Liz:
Absolutely.
Guest 5:
People do freak out. They're just like, "What?" And then they check in, they check in. "Have you done it yet?"
I have friends that have said, "Oh, I have to try that. I'll have to try being celibate. I really don't know what that's like to be celibate." I would say that's the main reaction, is that most people wouldn’t know really what that's like. And they say, "Well how long?" How long are you celibate for? I think the average would maybe be a few months or a year would seem kind of like torture. And the nonchalance when I say, "Oh, four and a half years, five years." It's like I have a third eye on my head.
Liz:
So what is it like then when you choose to engage with a partner after being celibate for so many years?
Guest 5:
There's no formula to it, again. If I look back at the past 10 years. For example, those spells were twice broken with a bottle of tequila and just a really beautiful man. And it was kind of like breaking the ice and going for it. However, the last spell was broken by something which I hadn't experienced until the relationship that was 10 years prior, which was much more intimate by way of emotion and true intimacy. No alcohol involved. Much more about that soul connection, which I value greatly. That kind of desire and not having the influence of substance and then the substance is more about an energetic exchange, which is quite pure and beautiful.
Liz:
Is that scary, being in that situation when previously you broke it with tequila, is it scary being with another person and just super raw and vulnerable and no medicinal lubrication?
Guest 5:
Yeah, exactly. The medicinal lubrication you can at least blame it on that. You can blame it on the tequila or you can blame it on poor decision making or not. Or you just chalk it up to that. It could go one of both ways, but at least there's that kind of buffer, if you will, however you choose to leverage it. I think when you're totally intimate and open without that lubrication of sorts, it does make you more raw and vulnerable.
I think now more than ever while there is this forced deprivation that we have, just a hug even is so desirable right now. And we forget that. We forget how much that our senses, that we need human touch, craving human touch. So I'm sure there's a lot of people right now that are either rethinking their position on celibacy or maybe they'll just turn into total heathens. Maybe the apps, the Tinders and Grindrs are going to go off the charts after all this.
Liz:
You were just telling me about some of your girlfriends prompting you to get back out there.
Guest 5:
Well, it's just so funny because they're like, "You've got to get that shit moving. You've got to get going." And I'm like, "No, I'm not giving up this golden pussy for just anybody, that shit's sacred. Somebody's got to earn getting into that. That's it." This is not something I'm going to give away.
Guest 6:
I get the idea of just being with a partner where sex can be evolved, and I think that's kind of what celibacy is hinting at. It's hinting at not doing it until you're with the right person and then it's like, what does that mean to be with the right person? I think it's more about how can it be evolved beyond a physical transaction. I think there's so much emphasis on the physical transaction, there's very little nuance, I would say blanket right now, or how I feel I've seen it come into my sphere of understanding. It kind of brings up all those things.
Liz:
Have you ever gone through a period of self-imposed celibacy at any time in your life?
Guest 6:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A bunch. I didn't want to have sex until I got married, and so I didn't until my early 20s. It was the thing that was happening in high school, very much so, but for me, I didn't want to, and then I took an acting class and that messes everything up.
Liz:
Why?
Guest 6:
You're in acting class and you're like, "Oh, man. I've got to express myself." I've learned something from everything, but absolutely... and something that... Yeah, again, I think it's super valid.
Liz:
What's the longest you've ever gone since you started having sex in your 20s?
Guest 6:
A while, like two years. Yeah.
Liz:
I like hearing that because I've heard that from a lot of women. Everybody has a different answer, but a lot more women will tell me, "Oh, years," whatever. And more men will be like, "Oh, man. The longest I went was like, fuck, like six weeks."
Guest 6:
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Women just get it more, too, just in general. They have more grasp than just think for a second, not even... but it's just to be able to pause. I think dudes, we have a really hard time pausing. We're always just like, "Wait, I did what?" A dude before sex and after sex is like a time machine. He's like, "Oh, man. I'm a different." It's just a different thing. It can really be an intoxicating experience, I think.
Liz:
You don't think it can be that way for women, too?
Guest 6:
No, I'm sure it is, but I just feel like sometimes there's more pause.
Liz:
Or maybe it's more tied up with masculinity, the idea of prowess, and it's more shameful for men, I think, to say that they've gone... It's more tied to masculine identity how much sex you're having. I feel like there's a lot of shame around that, around not having sex.
Guest 7:
I'd be ashamed to say how many months I've gone at times without having sex. Well, not ashamed, but nobody would expect that. That's for sure.
Liz:
What was the longest you ever went
Guest 7:
Like almost a year. Before I met my husband. I was so burned from something that happened to me that I just did not want to connect. I didn't want .... and I wasn't feeling any connections with anybody. I sort of said, okay, if I get that feeling, if I get that connection, then maybe I'll change my mind. And I met Jim, but we waited. We sort of did everything very traditionally. We waited a couple of weeks before we made love. We were engaged for a year before we got married. We both decided that we wanted to do, everything in a very traditional beautiful way. And I had a beautiful wedding and we celebrate every anniversary.
Liz:
So celibacy was positive for you? It ended up being really positive?
Guest 7:
Well it was. I think it's only natural. I think human beings are supposed to be celibate from time to time. I think it's healthy.
Liz:
To sort of clear the palate or to reconnect with yourself?
Guest 7:
And to clear your chakras and to keep your energy flow free. Scientific research has found that you retain a little bit of the DNA of everyone you sleep with inside yourself for the rest of your life. It's incredible. The act of intercourse is an incredibly profound act. And in the animal kingdom, some animal species ... There's a tribe of monkeys, they do everything through sex. If you're upset, you have sex. If you're happy, you have sex. If you're hungry, you have sex and then you eat. If you're feeling not attractive, you bring several of the monkeys over to have sex and then you feel better. There's no way to define exactly what it all means because it means so many things. We were talking about layers and dimensions.
Guest 8:
I was sexually abused as a child, and so a lot of times what happens with people who are sexually abused is, once they become adults, they become considered hyper-sexual. Or that's something that can happen. And that definitely happened with me, it was definitely a very... In my 20s, I was very promiscuous. I was promiscuous to a point where, if I had known what I was doing was unhealthy, I would've seen a therapist younger. But because that's such a private... First of all, because being queer and, especially at that time, I considered myself gay. So being a young, gay man, it's almost normalized to be extremely promiscuous. So it's normalized, but then yeah, I guess I just didn't know. I really didn't know any better.
And when I look back now, it's like becoming HIV positive was the halt where it was like, "Oh, there are way deeper psychological issues." It's like I really equated sex with love because I had no idea what intimacy was. No one had ever... I had had teeny boyfriends, but besides that, in my 20s... My 20s, I would say for me probably sexually were my most adventurous times. But definitely, I think, the darkest, because I did not know intimacy at all. I was denied that, and I think that also I came from that promiscuous consciousness that probably subconsciously did not even allow it.
So up until I got into a really serious relationship, about four years ago, I considered myself... I think having HIV made me way more careful about my promiscuity, and it did slow me down a bit, but I still had a lot of sex. And a lot of that was void-filling sex. Almost all my sex in my 20s was honestly was sad, void-filling sex. There was some fun times here and there, it wasn't, I'm not trying to paint this dark macabre picture of my sex life. But there was a shit ton of trauma.
Truthfully, up until my late 20s, I had a traumatic sex life. A lot of abuse. Yeah, very traumatic sex life. And so I think taking the hormones... Actually, just a few months ago, having the testosterone blocker, I was like, "Oh crap, this is awesome. I haven't gotten horny or thought about sex in a long time in a certain way." And I can be blatantly honest. Okay, I had sex in October, and I just had sex in January, but from October to January, I didn't have sex, and that was the longest time in my entire life I had not had sex. And I know that has to do with transitioning, and I know that has to do with my testosterone being blocked.
Liz:
That was three months.
Guest 8:
Okay, is that three months?
Liz:
I think so.
Guest 8:
Yeah, okay.
Liz:
And now we're-
Guest 8:
Well, I mean, and now I haven't had sex again since, so-
Guest 9:
Before I was in porn, I remember going through a six or seven month period. Then I don't know for me there was a while when porn, I didn't count my on camera sex as getting laid. When I was in between one relationship and another relationship I went a good amount of time without off camera sex, which I know nobody will feel bad for me. I was still having really good on camera sex. To me that was celibacy.
Liz:
It was saving some part of yourself or were you consciously thinking, “I need a palate cleanser in between relationships?”
Guest 9:
Yeah. I think it was that and just, well, at different points in my life there was a period of time where after I got out of one relationship and I had a bunch of one night stands with people I'm like, it just wasn't fulfilling. I'm like the next time I do this I want it to be someone who matters. Why am I wasting this on these idiots? I'd rather use this energy and focus on myself. I went through the same thing when I went through a celibate period pre porn. I remember I was in a relationship and I was so sad when it ended. The guy cheated on me and I was so devastated. I was so heartbroken. Then I remember trying to cope with it by having a whole bunch of sloppy drunken desperate feeling one night stands. I think I was feeling like sex wasn't coming from a good place.
It wasn't doing what I wanted it to do. I was like, all right, I'm just going to stop thinking about sex. I actually masturbated. Masturbating is really good for you. That need, sometimes people forget when they really feel the need to get laid. That need can go away by just taking care of yourself. Take the edge off, so then when you go out there in the world and you're ready to meet someone you can give them the best version of you and not this desperate anxious on edge version of you. I want sex to be fun and a beautiful moment that you're sharing with someone, not something that is almost like an addiction you need to fill or something. When I start to feel that way, like oh I haven't done this in so long I need to do it, that's the time when I think it's like okay wait til you're having sex for the right reasons if that makes any sense.
Guest 10:
The person I used to be was like I would want to have sex with everyone and anyone and everyone could make me cum, and now I'm at a place where I'm like, I don't want to have sex with anyone and not anyone can make me cum. Like, it has to be someone that I like am really into or in love with. And so I'm kind of just like, "I don't have that person, so I'm just not having sex."
Liz:
For how long?
Guest 10:
I guess until I find the right person.
Liz:
I mean, how long has it been?
Guest 10:
Since I've had like off-camera sex? Months or longer. A year or more or something like that. I don't really... Because I also get sex all the time on set and I'll just give my own self personal stimulation and satisfaction at home. But yeah, I was interested in a guy, but we weren't having sex with each other. I would have liked to have sex with this particular person, but he wouldn't have sex with me.
Liz:
Oh really?
Guest 10:
It was interesting.
Liz:
You think he had performance anxiety?
Guest 10:
I don't know what it was. I'm not sure what his thing is. There was like a few different things that he told me where he's really kind of focused on his work and he felt if he would have sex and all he would be able to think about is having sex. And I think he was also fearful of intimacy and so he was, "If we have sex then I'm going to fall in love with you. And I don't think I'm ready to like fall in love right now." And things like that. I know. I hate him as well.
Guest 11:
So, I'll be honest with you. It's funny because when people ask, "What's the longest you've ever gone without sex?" I like to say 16 years because I feel like as soon as I started fucking, there was not many times that I haven't had sex. I would say that I am someone who has had casual sex, multiple partners. I'm currently 29 years old and this is my 30th year of life, I turn 30 this year. And with the coronavirus early on into quarantine I was, oh my God at one point, considering flying dick into New York just so that I could have some sex, because I travel a lot and the person who I was having sex with locally I actually ended that relationship in October. And it wasn't even a relationship, so to speak, he was just my primary sex partner. And we've been fucking for seven years and just recently like I said I cut him off.
And when we got into this space where sex wasn't an option because you had to consider your health because of coronavirus and you're shamed for going out, you're shamed for having people come over that don't live with you. And I had this strong connection with oh my God I need to get fucked, how am I going to get fucked, I can't get fucked, they're telling me I can't have someone over.
And so to me, I realized how much emphasis I was putting on sex. And so most recently, someone texted me and they were literally just checking up on me. And in that instance I was just like, okay well I don't want a pen pal. So knowing that he couldn't come and penetrate me, knowing that he couldn't come and give me quality time because of COVID-19, I realized how nasty I was to him. And it kind of just clicked in me that if I wasn't having sex with you or if you couldn't give me the quality time that I wanted, then I didn't want anything to do with you. And getting into my 30s, I kind of just had to self reflect. And I'm like, I'm not even allowing myself to emotionally connect to men. I'm literally finding ways to connect with them only through sex. And that is probably why I've had the problems I've had dating.
So with this I've definitely took out of the mindset of lusting for individuals and wanting sex and having that interaction with men in itself. And really sat back and was like, okay I need to have a deeper connection to whoever I'm talking to. So during this virus and lockdown that's kind of where my focus has been. And even when we're able to go back outside, I do want to eliminate the focus of sex.
Liz:
Instead of really tapping into the pleasure potential of what sex could be, a lot of times I find that we use sex as a mindless way to pass time or to fill a void, to get rid of our loneliness, or as escapism. Like the way that we would mindlessly, like the other night I ate like a whole loaf of banana bread that I had in my freezer after I ate half a chocolate bar. I wasn't even hungry. I was just kind of stress eating or whatever, watching Keeping Up with the Kardashians, whatever it is. So it's interesting to be collectively forced into this situation now where we're "Fuck. I'm scared, I'm anxious. I don't know if that dick is going to solve all the problems."
Guest 11:
Right. And it's not even that it'll solve problems. I'm just realizing how much emphasis I was putting on sex. And that's the thing, I don't believe in having sex just to go through the act. So I'm very big on making sure whoever I'm having sex with aligns with me as far as my kinks, aligns with me as far as okay I'm not just going to have sex with someone who is a one and done. I know that I like rounds, so I'm very big into the vetting process even with my sex partners. Are we aligned? Is the chemistry going to be there? Do the same things turn us on? Do we want to go all night together? So there's certain things, I like to say I give a survey to see if we're even compatible sexually. And I'm realizing that I was putting a lot more emphasis on whether we aligned sexually and in the kink space more than if we aligned with values, more than if we aligned with what we really want out of partners. I was literally just vetting individuals as sex partners instead of life partners.
There's so many guys that I genuinely hate as soon as we stop having sex. It's like, "Ew, don't talk." We don't really have much in common. But when we're in the act of sex is where we connect the most. I just know now that I want to connect beyond sex. And I think a lot of my connections have been sex focused. And being quarantined and being locked down has definitely put that in perspective for me.
Liz:
What do you want in a life partner?
Guest 11:
Right now I am looking for someone that I can tell them I had a shitty day. I can be excited and tell them the most exciting things of my life. I can cry with them. I can ask them and really genuinely care about how their day is going. And then we can also have sex and suck and fuck each other and explore each other that way. So I think right now I do want a partner in that sense. And I think I haven't allowed myself to have that.
Liz:
So we're getting to see a more vulnerable side of Mandii during this quarantine.
Guest 11:
People say I'm not really vulnerable. I don't cry, I like to hide a lot of my feelings. I am kind of more militant. Everything does have to make sense to me. There is a reason for everything. I overthink things. And I think just more so now it's me realizing that I have to communicate more that I do have feelings. If you're doing something I am hurt by it and I'm going to let you know that I'm hurt by it, but also just making sure that feelings are mutual. And because I'm looking for something deeper, going ahead and cutting off those individuals that are letting me know up front, "Well hey, I don't really want anything serious, I'm just looking to kick it." And me realizing that it's not my job to change their mind. And if they're telling me that that's what they want up front, then for me to go ahead and take that as knowing that maybe that's not the person for me and moving on.
Once this is all over I'll be about three or four months without having dick which will be probably the longest ever. So once I'm able to get back out into the streets and travel again, I’ll definitely let you know if I'm able to abstain or maintain celibate. Like I said, I think they're still intertwined in itself. I don't want to get married, so this is all just me literally abstaining from sex until I have a partner that kind of can fuck me mentally and emotionally without the straight physicality of it.
Guest 12:
I grew up as just very sexually insecure, Asian immigrant. And I also am super sexual. So, when I did get into relationship in my late 20s, I was already serial monogamy, but I never was really happy with it. You know, it's not because my partner is not beautiful and not enough or I won't want them. I just had a novelty drive that I did not understand, especially after infatuation. My sex drive changed quite a bit and I did not know how to navigate those.
So, I ended up being in serial monogamous relationship, like maybe I'd be a year, be two years. And then the last one ended pretty bad. Both of them like some professional struggle at that time to me just like don't know what to do with it when I hit that post infatuation period. So, I was feeling really down about my whole, just my relationship life and my sex life. And other things that are happening at that time. I'm 38 now, that was probably 26, 27 to 28, 29 around that time. And after that two years, which is a really strange time because I feel like there, whenever you feel insecure or feeling anxiety, the longer you wait worse it gets, it didn't get better over time.
Liz:
Did you consciously decide I'm going to be celibate for two years?
Guest 12:
I was conscious to be celibate for like a couple months, but then like I was experiencing a lot of anxiety about just my sexual worth and self esteem stuff at that time, and then ask it longer, I said just kind of like, after three months it kind of gotten worse. And then I was like, your self esteem kind of go to shit the longer you wait. So, I remember how much it was a struggle to like get out of it
But then, I think two years later I was like making this kind of like transformational paradigm mindset, like growth mindset and trying to reset everything from my professional life to sort of like every aspect of my life. And then I went on an online date and then this girl told me there's such thing as sex parties and open relationship is a thing people do. And then from that moment, it kind of transformed my life to where I am today.
Liz:
So you went from fully celibate to sex parties?
Guest 12:
Pretty much. Yeah.
Liz:
There was like no in between?
Guest 12:
No. I think what really shifted was sort of this paradigm shift that I had internally was the person who rejected me the most was me. It wasn't like an outward thing where experience a lot of people being mean to me or rejecting me. Most of the pain that I experienced is self rejection. And that was like one of the harder lessons that I learned about my sexuality and I go like, "Well, at least let the world reject you instead of you rejecting yourself a thousand time internally."
Liz:
And what was the second experience with celibacy that you went through?
Guest 12:
That was interesting one because I was thinking, I was reading all the Daoist and Tantra technique about not ejaculating. So, I was like, as a sexual practice, what is it like to not have sex with people and like not masturbating to an orgasm and see what that is like. I wanted to do it for 30 days. I think it ended at like 27, and it was a very interesting self-experimentation about, I was also just a science nerd when it comes to sex. I was reading all the things that people say about how porn affects your brain, and what is it like to recondition all of that.
So, I also did a little bit of like a mindful masturbation practice, a self pleasure practice to kind of like increase my ability to be aware of the sensation and not having this like porn feedback loop. Although my current view on it is that it really depends on the person and their amount of use people get and how disruptive porn use is actually causing them that live. And there is no definitive study to really back that up 100%. But I definitely learned a lot about my sex drive and desire and ejaculating and how that part works. But it wasn't easy for sure.
Liz:
So, because you were not, you were also trying to not masturbate during that second celibacy period?
Guest 12:
Not ejaculate.
Liz:
Not ejaculate. So, you're masturbating, so your mindful masturbation was masturbation without ejaculation.
Guest 12:
And that's weird. It was an interesting experience because I'm still like a nerd about all of their ancient practices and wisdom, right? And in Daoist is like probably the more strict about it, like zero ejaculation only when you want to make babies or like something a little bit more intense. So, and different teacher has different perspective on it. But, currently I still feel like if your desire, I guess the refractory your fear and desired, thus have a, as I get older too. So, I do notice like one way to kind of manage how often you ejaculate, also manage your sex drive. And so, but I want to learn more, it's not something that I feel like I've master yet.
Guest 13:
I think because I was raised Catholic, I have a very religious, no response to the word celibacy. Because usually my introduction to that word is like celibate because of some kind of debt to pay or because sex is dirty and wrong and all that. But that said, I can also... I can see what people... And I know people who are celibate, and it's not about that at all. It's a different kind of spiritual journey. But all of that to say, I think that sexual energy is really powerful, and we should treat it that way.
It's a very powerful energy and it can get really mixed up with a lot of other things going on in our heads. And I've certainly fasted before both religiously and non religiously. And there is a clearing out process that happens when you sort of give something up that has a strong pull for you, you can untangle the motivations and the results and things that you just never could see before.
Guest 14:
So I've been celibate now for two years. The first year I would say it was, I'm celibate until I want to get married. Until I find my partner. And that's what I thought I wanted for my celibacy. But then the more I started delving into psychedelics and all that stuff, I started realizing that I was questioning the practice as a whole. Like it had nothing to do with waiting for the right partner, but more so figuring out what I wanted sexually, just in general. I never asked myself that question.
I was like blindly fucking these dudes that I didn't care about at all. On the flip side, I was in like a horrible relationship, just because the dick was so good. Like just toxicity. So, the first half I'd say was waiting until I found a partner. And now it's just, it's been more of a waiting until I found out what I desired sexually by myself first. But it's ever changing. Like for the first time ever. And it may be caused by the quarantine, I don't know. But for the first time in this two years, I've like thought about perhaps stopping the celibacy.
For a minute there, I wasn't even masturbating. I just wanted to figure out what my issues on, I don't know, shame, what my relationship to shame was, because I was realizing that even when masturbating, I would feel something that was like shame adjacent. And I wanted to figure out why, I don't want to feel that way. It's a crummy feeling and I love sex. I just wanted to figure out what this conflict inside of me was. So, I had to eliminate that in order for me to dissect it a little.
Liz:
And when you say, for you celibacy includes any active sex. So that means no kissing, no touching, no oral, no fingering.
Guest 14:
A year ago I would've said yes. However, now I'm figuring out those rules now. Like I think that like, I also haven't even like kissed a guy in two years. I know it sounds weird saying out loud, but it's true, now-
Liz:
So, let's back up. Why? That's what I'm curious about. Why does it sound weird to say out loud? Why is it so shameful, this idea of taking a break?
Guest 14:
Because of the way I've had like friends react to it when I'm in social settings. It's always received with a, I mean for how long or I mean you're going to stop, right? Or it just makes me feel... When I speak about it in public, it's always questioned. So, I guess I've been conditioned to feel this like, "Oh, I don't know." I guess I guess it's because I'm not comfortable with myself.
Liz:
Or maybe it's because other people, I think a lot of it is because other people are not comfortable with that idea. Because if we take our validation from how attractive or sexually attractive someone else finds us, what does that say about how we're coming into this world and how we're learning about our sexuality? If we're giving other people the agency to decide that for us. I mean, how many times have you been at a party and the question is like, who are you fucking, who are you dating?
Guest 14:
Yeah. Yeah.
Liz:
And that's supposed to define you?
Guest 14:
Oh man, Liz, you're dropping bombs. That's literally how I feel sometimes. I have trouble articulating it because I'm constantly trying to like seem cool or like socially, culturally on trend, but it fucking sucks. For example, I've loved my celibacy. I've learned so much about myself. I've been so kind to me and my pussy and my entire body. It's almost like other people are uncomfortable with that. And I've never heard it said that way before Liz, but yeah, I guess that, that what... Please invoice me later because you're helping me out.
But I really do love my celibacy. I call it a practice. I mean it is, it's at least at this point now on the second half of celibacy, it really does feel like a meditative practice now almost.
Liz:
You're saying that during this quarantine you found yourself going to questioning the celibacy. I'm curious as to what prompted that. Is it just seeing everyone else in the same position or?
Guest 14:
Honestly, I was really horny and I think, I don't know if it's because we're seeing so many like pussies on social media and like all that jazz. Perhaps, you mean social media right now is being flooded with, I mean, literally like pussies on camera, on Instagram, on IG live, on Twitter.
I just got really horny here by myself and I got super lonely. And I wanted to see if it worked. I wanted to feel an orgasm. I felt like I was longing for it almost. And I know it sounds funny to say, but I really did want to see if I could still, if my machinery was right, if my machinery was working.
Liz:
I don't think it ever, I don't think your machinery ever stops working. I don't believe in that “If you don't use it, you lose it” old idiom, but I think it's interesting because now, we're in a situation where we've gotten everything taken away from us. Just our sense of socializing with other human beings or touch or hugs that I think it heightens that sense of loneliness that you're talking about by choosing not to have sex. But then, at the end of the day, do you want to go out and just sleep with some random person? Does that orgasm that you want to experience, is it like a quick empty fuck or is it like a soulful, transcendent religious experience orgasm?
Guest 14:
So, funny enough, I grew up in a very secular home. I never went to church at all. The first time I went to church was when I was 23 years old. And I had no idea what it would do for me. I was just constantly, I was trying to find answers about why this is going to... Okay, well now we're going to get a little deeper. I was kind of having some suicidal thoughts and I was angry at myself for having, for feeling shame after sex. I was angry at myself for feeling like I didn't want to be even alive. Like, you know, I would always hear people talk about gratitude and all this other bullshit and stuff.
And I was at a space where that was boy, like non-existent. So, the second I started practicing Christianity on a religious basis, everything else happened like a domino effect. It felt like God was giving me a prescription, and the prescription was, the answers are in. Quit trying to look outside for some answers, spend some time with yourself. And it just so happens that I feel like he entered me through celibacy. I've only been a Christian for two, two and a half years now.
So it all played a role, and they happened around the same time. And like I said, like a domino effect. It just, how do I say this? I felt like the spirit of Christ penetrated me. Well, he bamboozled me. Like I wasn't even looking for that. I was just looking for a reason not to die, and then all this other stuff started happening. I'm speaking so frankly about this and I don't want to seem like I'm minimizing my experience. But that's just honestly how it was. I wasn't seeking, I didn't know. I didn't actively seek it out for that. It just so happened to be that way. And now I go to virtual church now on quarantine time every week, and I have conversations with God. Actually, I ask Him like, "God, should I keep this up?"
And I swear I feel it. I feel Him say, just intuitively you will know. Like intuitively you will know when you want to end to your celibacy. Like even me masturbating a couple of weeks ago, that was major for me. And the fact that I masturbated and I didn't feel any shame. I attribute that to my being celibate for as long as I have been because I'm telling you, Liz, before every single time I would masturbate, I would feel so shitty. I would feel like empty. It would feel like guilt, and I didn't understand why that was happening.
And in fact, when I would tell my friends about it, they would always say, “you just got to keep doing it. You just got to keep doing it to figure yourself out. You just got to keep doing it.” It's like the more I did it, the worse it became.
Liz:
Well, I think it's very normal and beautiful to sort of create a relationship with your spirituality and have that instigate redefining your relationship with your sexuality. If you're not sort of tuned in with your intuition, with how you feel about your body and your relationship to God or spirit, and that's such a personal thing, it's very hard to experience those exalted States of pleasure.
And I think that that has become a taboo thing to say. I think that you can be sex positive and be celibate. I don't think they're mutually exclusive love of God and love of sex.
Guest 14:
That’s right. Yeah, that’s right.
Liz:
I'm really curious because you already understand that sex is not just about penetration or orgasm. How do you feel about celibacy? Have you ever taken periods of not having sex?
Guest 15:
Yeah. Sure.
Liz:
For what purpose or why?
Guest 15:
Yes. A lot of times because... You know what? I don't want to get inside such a very personal thing just because I respect my partner but I think that me and my partner we have sex in such a different ways that it's easier. I'm not really, like I was saying, never in the period that I'm not having sex because, for me, I mean, sex is such a delicate word like I was saying.
I can be physically also with my boyfriend and I feel that I'm having sex also when I'm in touch with, as Plato said, in a different way with friends, with people that I love, with friends of mine that I know from a long time and we are in relation as the same thing of my boyfriend.
I said that I'm Pagan. I want to be Pagan also in the way that I love people. Yes. Sometimes if we are talking about the very popular way to consider sex it happened a lot of times because I'm having sex working, reading poems, eating, not eating, laughing. It's time to go in bed and having the very popular sex. I go to the theater and I have sex on the chair of the theater.
Sometimes I saw the most amazing, spectacular things on the stage. People talking to me. I mean, I feel myself like an orgasm ... That's why I wrote on the bags ... I was talking about orgasm in the fashion show last season because I was trying to describe fashion as an orgasm. When I tried to put something on another person, something beautiful, when the fabrics caress you and touch you, a piece of silk, you feel like an orgasm. You can't believe.
Liz:
I mean, I found a 1960s purple leather Pierre Cardin mini dress that just goes up like this with a collar yesterday at a vintage store here in Milan and that was like way better than sex actually.
Guest 15:
Also, can I say if we keep and we want to put sex and the orgasm and all this in deep sensation we can describe in a very simple way, sex, in just the act of penetration or oral sex and blah, blah, blah, we can go for hours, it's like that we are killing the meaning of our life. I don't want to kill the idea that I can live more and more ...
I don't want to stay all my life in the bed. I don't want to lose something when I'm walking in the street. I don't want to feel the weight of having sex. It means that if we are doing something that is around the penetration, the very I think mad way to describe sex just in this mythical place that is bed in a bed...
I can hear some... I have to say not really young, young generation, they are different. I am talking about people of the same age, from the 30 to the 50, 51, 60 when they start to talk about the relation they ask if you are having sex. Otherwise, the relation is not working.
Liz:
They need to go outside and make love to the earth.
Guest 15:
Yeah. I mean, a relation with another person - it's so mysterious. You can put the rules... If we are not having sex every night, we are not in the relation. They are super strong relation that they talk so many language and that's the best for me.
Liz:
That's a beautiful answer.
Liz Outro:
That was our season three finale - again, a huge thank you to Dr. Kate Lister, Shan Boodram, Weezy & Mandii of the Whoreible Decisions Podcast, Money Mark, Carolyn Murphy, Ramy Youssef, Bebe Buell, Mykki Blanco, Joanna Angel, Riley Reid, Kenneth Play, Justin Simien, Brianda Agramonte, and Alessandro Michele for their participation and vulnerability.
And THANK YOU, listeners, for tuning in to season three of The Sex Ed Podcast! We will be back with more sex, health and consciousness education in the very near future.
Once again, a huge thank you to GUCCI for sponsoring this episode. You can find all things GUCCI via their website, GUCCI.com, and on instagram, @GUCCI.
Until next time, you can read exclusive content on TheSexEd.com, follow us on instagram @TheSexEd, and listen to past episodes anywhere podcasts are streamed. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts.
The Sex Ed is hosted by me, Liz Goldwyn. This episode was recorded and edited by Jeremy Emery and produced by Chloe Cassens. Lewis Lazar made all of our music, including the track you’re listening to right now.
As always, The Sex Ed remains dedicated to expanding your orgasmic health and sexual consciousness.