Violet Chachki: Drag Race Taboos & Being a Fashion Icon
Podcast Transcript Season 2 Episode 17
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Illustration BY Black Women Animate
We’re kicking off Season 2 of The Sex Ed Podcast fabulously with Violet Chachki, — iconic drag queen, aerialist and burlesque performer. Violet is the winner of RuPaul’s Drag Race Season 7 and a showgirl who tours the world. On this episode, Violet and Liz discuss Catholic school uniforms, breaking Drag Race taboos, being a fashion icon and so much more.
The following is a transcript of the interview from the episode:
Liz Goldwyn:
Thank you for being here today Violet.
Violet Chachki:
Thank you so much for having me, I'm so excited.
Liz Goldwyn:
Oh, so I want to take it back to the beginning in Atlanta, at Catholic school.
Violet Chachki:
Oh my God. I'm having PTSD already. Yeah, it was just, I think it wasn't even a religious thing on my parents' side. It was more of like, we want to have like the best education and like I guess they also went to Catholic school and they were raised Catholic. So that's kind of where it started and I'm actually really thankful for it because I think in a way it kind of like, I mean it's so typical, it's like everyone who went to Catholic school was like, "Oh no." Like that's just like those are the rules.
I don't make them like you just because you're, it's so ingrained in you all these rules and strictness. I think you just instinctively rebel. And I think that's kind of what happened with me. I was just always getting in trouble for like everything. Like I obviously stood out for many, many reasons just like personality wise. And of course, in Catholic school it's all about being uniform.
Like everyone is supposed to literally wear a uniform, but you're also supposed to kind of like act uniform.
Liz Goldwyn:
Conform.
Violet Chachki:
Conform, exactly. And that's like what it's all about and kind of like being background, and being still, and being reverent, and being graceful. And like, you know, going to church and going to mass and doing all these sacraments and command and whatever, you know, there's so many like rituals and like it's crazy to think about.
It's like culty, there's like all the robes and I mean I can get into that aspect of it, like the costuming of it all.
Liz Goldwyn:
You kind of liked that.
Violet Chachki:
No, of course. And there's like smoke, like there's a guy like flinging smoke around. So that was like glamorous and there's also that sort of like ominous aspect. There's like a dark aspect to it too, which of course I loved. But actually in school, I wouldn't say it was miserable. I was just like noticed even more. Like I feel like I stood out even more because everyone else was a bit more conformed and like little leaders they could not control me.
Like I was just so different, just like my personality alone.
Liz Goldwyn:
How did you rebel against the uniform dress code?
Violet Chachki:
I would just try to get away. It started in like in maybe middle school, I started to just like, I would like dye my hair. Like I think I had like pink hair at one point and they school went like ballistic. And, of course my mom went ballistic too. like I would do like weird shit, like let it start with like little things.
And then in high school, I was fully like taking my uniform pants and like taking them and making them like skin tight. Like I have like neon green thread down the side of it. Like, I had my nose pierced and then I had to wear a bandaid over my nose because it wasn't allowed. And then I was always trying to grow my hair out and I remember there were always rules, like the hair on the boys couldn't touch the eyebrows, couldn't touch the back of the neck, and can’t touch the ears.
So I basically, we just have this like weird, like bald head, like Mola mops, and like, I was like trying to get away with so much. Yeah, I was just getting in trouble all the time.
Liz Goldwyn:
Because there's a lot of like really specific gender roles in dress, right?
Violet Chachki:
Absolutely. There's so, like for one, the girls have way more options for uniforms. They can wear pants, there's like, of course there's whole like, feminism moment, which is amazing. But then I'm sitting here like, why I, there's not a lot of options for guys. Just like in real life, there's not a lot of like men's wear options. And there's just so many gender specific rules like the hair is one of them, make up is another one.
I would wear makeup to school and people would like get mad at me, like just like foundation. And I was like contouring with bronzer. So it'd be like Shimmery, like weird under her cheekbone, Brown streaks to makeup hair. There's lots of gender specific rules that made me question everything. I mean I was like, even as young as like first communion, I remember having to wear like khakis and a navy blazer and the girls would all, well they were all freaking out about their first communion dresses.
Like this is- khakis.
Yeah, khaki khaki like pleated khaki pants, like a clip on tie.
Liz Goldwyn:
Khakis are probably like the worst.
Violet Chachki:
The worst, I want to like make it past into positive, so I'm like, Oh, no I'm thankful because now I like her perspective on it. Right? But I remember being like, oh all these girls have like all their dresses are so unique. Like, the girls got to pick out like a really unique style of dress. I mean it was a white dress of course, cause it's first communion, but all the boys were wearing literally like a uniform, like khaki pants and a blazer.
Navy blazer. And then all the girls, I had tons of girlfriends always like never had any guy friends. So I also stood out for that cause I always hung out with only girls. Like all my best girlfriends were were girls forever. It's always been like that. And they were all, you know, they're all talking about like, my dress looks like this, my dress looks like that. I just felt so left out, completely left out.
And that's like a really young memory to have. It's like second. That's like second grade.
Liz Goldwyn:
Is that when your glamour journey began?
Violet Chachki:
I would say so. I feel like it's, I've been on the glamour journey my whole life, but yeah, I think that's when I first started noticing that I was attracted to feminine things, Glamour and beads and sequins and, I definitely think so. And I remember I've told this story before too. My mom is not super, super glamorous at all. Like, of course now I'm trying to like make her more glamorous and like take her out sometimes and take her to Adidas shows and things like that.
But I remember she, whenever she would leave the house, I'd be home alone. So I was probably like still in like grade school. I would say my sister would babysit or something. So we'd have this one pair of like rhinestone clip on earrings, like eighties, really big rhinestone like really gaudy earrings. I've never, I haven't even seen pictures of her wearing them, like they’re costume jewelry, but I would always go and put them on when she would leave and eventually just stole them.
And they were in my drag kit for awhile until I lost them of course, which was horrible. I wish I still had them. But yeah, I think that's kind of the first time I like looked through the mirror with the clip on earrings on and was like giving a gift, gave me something and I was also like giving something back.
It felt like, something happened between the mirror and me, and with the clip out of your exotic, it was like a life force.
Liz Goldwyn:
So when did you liberate yourself from the oppressive nature of Catholic education and start performing?
Violet Chachki:
I think there's ... so in Catholic school you have to go to mass once a month. Like as a school you have school wide bass. And it was always, I think maybe junior year so you can go up for communion. Right? And that's like everyone goes up a comedian, but there was always like the few punk kids who wouldn't go up for communion. And that was kind of the way of saying like, oh, I don't believe in this anymore. So I think junior year I was like, you know what, I'm not going to go up for community in this time.
And I just started sitting communion out. and I think that was the first time I had been like, "I don't believe in this." Like I'm not going to get confirmed. This is confirmation, which is what you do when you like, I don't even know what to call it, like you're of age to take her. I don't even know. There was probably some like ridiculous Catholic definition of it, but it's like you're accepting the Catholic values and you're like of age.
It happens when you're like maybe ninth grade or something, I don't know. So that was the first time I had kind of like rebuked the religion aspect. But I was going out in looks when I was like 16. I would lie, Oh my God, I would lie to my parents so much, like so much. Like, yeah, "I'm going to go to youth group," and I would fully have a guy I met on Myspace, come pick me up in his jeep.
We'd go to some college party and I would just get wasted off like McCormick's vodka, in like wet seal boots and like fully black smudged eye make up and like, I'm more of a fashion, like a clip. I had like glue in extensions. I would have like some like weird, this was the 2000s, so like, I don't even know what to call it. Scene, there's a whole like electro glam moment happening.
So I was like fully into that lamé leggings, the whole nine yards. So I was doing that in high school. Like I would be going to high school in hungover, like scrubbing the makeup off my face, putting on my altered neon green stitched uniform pants, and like going into first period late, hungover.
Liz Goldwyn:
There you weren't thinking of it does performance at the time?
Violet Chachki:
No, I was just thinking of as like living my real life. I was like, "Okay, well," like I kind of knew like I'm better than this I guess, that's sounds so horrible to say out loud, but I need that like a high school isn't real. Like in that, it doesn't determine like who's cool and who's not. Like who's cool in high school usually isn't going to be cool after high school. And I kind of knew that going into it.
So I kind of looked at-
Liz Goldwyn:
Because you'd seen a lot of teen movies?
Violet Chachki:
A lot of teen movies, a lot of teen movies, and I was also a child of the Internet. So there was a lot of references out there and I was learning a lot about fashion, and art and like what interested me and I had a lot of information at my fingertips and it wasn't a major metropolitan city. Atlanta is like kind of a gay Mecca of the south, I would say. Like everyone from all of the southern states kind of goes there to party and let loose and be gay.
So now it wasn't performance. Yeah, I think I was just kind of living authentically. And I would go thrifting all the time. And that's kind of when the drag started. This is when I started kind of cross dressing in my childhood bedroom, home alone wearing like clothes I had stolen from a thrift store like vintage, like 40s crepe gowns that were like moth eaten and shit.
Liz Goldwyn:
Who were the references that you were looking up online that would inform these early characters?
Violet Chachki:
I guess Dietrich was like a really big one, just like scrolling through Tumbler or just like stopping and staring, and I would research and I also was like a big one. Like when I first started seeing sort of fetish art, my mind just kind of like, was going like spastic, I was like, "This is incredible. This is exciting. This is like fresh and new and like it's just exciting."
So we kind of like see an image and then we kind of try to read the description of the caption and try to dig more than I would search the name and I would like go on a full kind of journey. So I think it’s definitely like one of my early ones that I am so lucky to have discovered it at an early age Dietrich, is another big one and learning about kind of-
Liz Goldwyn:
Erté, I know you know I talked about.
Violet Chachki:
Oh yeah, I love Erté, and that one was pretty early too. I feel like maybe learn about [inaudible 00:12:54] before Erté, but I'd always kind of been into art deco, aesthetics and just kind of that even like art deco architecture. And so seeing it kind of mirrored in a piece of art by Erté and like I would, I remember I would just scroll through Tumbler just like a zombie.
I would be so stoned with my boyfriend at the time, just scrolling through tumbler and just like, my visuals were just like, I was thinking mental picture, to mental pictures, to mental picture. And then I was kind of researching whatever really resonated with me. Erté still resonates with me. I mean all of these references have stuck with me and I'm constantly find myself being like, "I don't know what to do next," that I keep getting reinspired by like things that have always been inspired me and kind of recontextualizing the inspirations.
Liz Goldwyn:
Did you ever come across Julian Eltinge?
Violet Chachki:
Potentially, the name doesn't ring super, a lot of bells, but-
Liz Goldwyn:
So Julian Eltinge was this early 20th century female impersonator, and he was so famous at the time that his box office rivaled Charlie Chaplin's. And he had a theater named after him actually.
Violet Chachki:
Where is the theater?
Liz Goldwyn:
In New York City, I don't know if it's, I don't think it's still there, Rose Eltinge's theater, the same time period of Erté, Ziegfeld, and he had to cultivate, still he was the most famous female impersonator at the time, like on the cover of sheet music, everything. But he had to cultivate this very butch public image.
Violet Chachki:
Oh God.
Liz Goldwyn:
Yeah. At the time, because even a hint of homosexuality would have destroyed his career, which is so odd, because he's-
Violet Chachki:
Known, famous.
Liz Goldwyn:
He's famous for cross dressing on stage.
Violet Chachki:
Oh God.
Liz Goldwyn:
That he's in your sweet spot of one of the era references.
Violet Chachki:
There's this drag queen from the 20s, 30s Barbette,
Liz Goldwyn:
In Paris.
Violet Chachki:
In Paris, and she was flat chested, which is like a big thing that I had to deal with even today. And she was an aerialist. And so, that's kind of like one of my favorite and she did lots of that holistic for the same feeling, the same Erté kind of like-
Liz Goldwyn:
And worked with Cocteau.
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, I mean, amazing. I feel like I want to sound with the modern day version of Barbette, but I'm not, that's like a lot of credit to give myself, you know what I mean?
Liz Goldwyn:
Give it, give it honey. Why do you feel like being flat chested is still a thing today?
Violet Chachki:
Well, I mean I think, I don't want to say that I started the trend of it, but I definitely on Drag Race, which I think is kind of like the Modern Day Bible of cross dressing, if you will. I was one of the first queens to kind of like be like, "Oh no, I'm flat chested, and that's like intentional, like it's chic." And I got a lot of pushback for it, like people didn't understand it and there's like a real female illusion, impersonation kind of, I don't know, it's like really classic traditional drag.
Where that kind of that mind set comes from, and the fact is is that lots of women are flat chested, you know what I mean? Like, whether it be a model or a regular woman, like there's tons of women out there that need rather that representation of flat chested women, like it's still beautiful and she came to me it's glamorous and she can drape-y and flapper in 20s and 30s and all of those things.
Violet Chachki:
So, when I did get pushback I was kind of like pissed, I was so mad. If you look my season of drag race. And I talked about all of this on drag race, kind of like the exclusion of flat chested women are more androgynous silhouettes or gender fluidity or like whatever it may be. And that all got just edited out. But I had like, I like when in on drag race about like how it was important to showcase being flat chested and what a queer body looks like and what it could look like and what other queer bodies can look like cis women can look like this or whatever it may be.
And I feel like, I just got totally cut.
Liz Goldwyn:
It wasn't part of the agenda?
Violet Chachki:
Not my storyline, I guess.
Liz Goldwyn:
What was the trajectory from stealing clothes at thrift shops in Atlanta to making it on Drag Race?
Violet Chachki:
I started to steal clothes and dress up in drag, in my childhood bedroom. And then me and my boyfriend at the time went on a Halloween. I'm so Halloween queen. Most queens are either Pride queens or Halloween queens, but I guess now it's like not the same because people are just getting dragged to go on a Friday night. But so, I started on Halloween and I went as Mary Kate Olson.
Liz Goldwyn:
But what period of Mary Kate Olson?
Violet Chachki:
Oh, like giant latte, Balenciaga boots, ripped up jeans, like hunched over.
Liz Goldwyn:
So like early 2000s?
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, early 2000 when like the fashion was like in its prime for her. When she was like the most psychotic. It's just that she's in a naughty like crazy hot pink platforms, like that whole like fur coat bag lady era.
Liz Goldwyn:
The fur coat over like a silk, slip dress-
Violet Chachki:
With like Chanel necklaces hanging and a head scarf, like a fashion turban with like a brooch, like their Rachel Zoe influence on fashion. And then my boyfriend went as Victoria Beckham, and like the lamé leggings with the dress over it, with the black bob, side swept sunglass, sort of like paparazzi shot, Victoria Beckham. And we went out together and I think I just kind of got, I got so much attention, and I think it just spiraled from there.
And that was when I was like 17 and I was still in high school going to Catholic school. And then I just started to go out more in looks for a while after that, and then I started to do, then it was like kind of probably senior year I started to go out in full drag, and I was sneaking into gay bars in drag with a fake ID, and that's what I was going to drag shows and seeing the performance.
And I was like, "I'm just, I really want to be into this. Like I really want to be into drag. I really love this. I love this form of expression. I think it's super necessary." I was seeing all these glamorous references that I was into, but nobody was giving me those references on stage. Like, I just wasn't seeing my drag queen. Like I want it to be a fan of a local drag queen. And I was like, I need to be, I want to be into this and there's nobody that I'm into, and I know these performers are doing anything for me.
And I was going out in drag and my friends were like, I remember I had this really, really southern friend named Billy and he was this like really from Alabama. It's really a fixed with an accident. He was like, "Well, girl needs to perform! We need to get you on stage!" So he basically forced me to perform, and then I just got hooked after that, and it just started spiraling, spiraling upward, I guess, or downward depending on I guess how you look at it.
Liz Goldwyn:
Were are your parents cool with all this?
Violet Chachki:
Oh no. They were so uncomfortable with it. I think my dad's still a little uncomfortable with it, but he's like, doesn't say anything. I can just tell in his demeanor. Now, I remember I moved out of my parents' house. I was squatting in a house for a minute with my friend Billy who forced me to go and do this. And I was going to college at Savannah College of Art and Design for fashion design.
I was doing drag on the weekends and it was like building and growing and I was doing competitions and kind of making a name for myself and kind of getting like a reputation. And then I dropped out of college to basically work in a pizza shop and do drag full time, and I moved back into my parents and I was still doing the drag and I was doing this like really big competition, which is like, it's called Drag Unique and it was almost like a mini Drag Race.
So it was like, I'm so competitive, like I'm so competitive. So I was getting really, really into it, like making all my costumes every week, and like there'd be like a challenge. I think one week it would be like past and present. So you have to do like a historical reference and a modern song. So I did Anne Boleyn, I did Yeah Yeah Yeahs “Off With Your Head”. Every week there'd be a challenge like that.
Every week I'm putting all that creative energy into these challenges and into these looks and performances and everything. I was living at home and I remember one day I was going out to leave for the gig and my mom saw me and stopped me. She was like, "You can't leave the house like that. Like you can't go out like that." And I was probably 19 at the time and I was like, "You can't tell you what to do."
And she was just like, she was scared for my safety is what it was. When I told her I was gay, she started crying and I don't think because she was like, I think she was just sad that I was going to have a harder life, which is like at the time I didn't understand that and it was like, "Why is she making me feel bad about who I am?" But it's like she genuinely was just sad, not for me, but for how the world is I think.
Liz Goldwyn:
For humanity.
Violet Chachki:
For humanity. I don't even think she realizes that's why she was sad, but that is what it is. She was sad for like the fact that I'm going to have a harder life now because I'm going to be who I am, you know? And I should probably still doesn't realize that. But that is why she was sad. And then when she tried to stop me from leaving the house and drag she, it was a safety concern.
I mean I'm driving in full drag in my Honda CRV down to the big, to Atlanta, which is like very mixed. There's like parts that you definitely don't want it to be in at a certain time alone, that kind of thing. But I was like, at the time it was so helpful and I was like, you're not going to ruin this competition for me. Like I'm going like, no. And yeah, I think that's the first time she saw me, and she was just terrified.
Liz Goldwyn:
Did she come around when she started winning competitions?
Violet Chachki:
Well, once I got on national television, yeah.
Liz Goldwyn:
So it took that long? How long was that between you being in the local scene and there's ultra competitive?
Violet Chachki:
I didn't win that cup, I think came in fourth place in my competition by the way. I don't know, I think that's why like three years of like, I moved back out. I bought an apartment. I was doing drag full time at this point, I was waitressing in drag at this place called Lips, if you can imagine that. And I was the only queen who was refusing to wear flats. I was like, "I'm not," they're like, "Well, we're waitressing."
I'm like, "I'm not. No." And I got these like little chunky chunky heels to waitress in, which I'm very proud of that I was on brand even back then. Like fully waitressing corseted and in a pump.
Liz Goldwyn:
What size could you cinch to in your clothes back then?
Violet Chachki:
Oh, well I was way, way skinnier back then, which was like, I'm not like, I'm all fat now. Like people's life happens and like you're like a fool if you think your body is going to be the same your entire life. Most probably like an 18 inch waist, like 18 or 19.
Liz Goldwyn:
What about now?
Violet Chachki:
I'm trying to get it back to 18 or 19. I don't know, I mean obviously it changes with how often you're wearing corsets and like, I want to say I can probably get down to like a 20, 21 inch, like comfortably. Your body changes and fluctuates day to day, especially with something extreme like corsets.
Liz Goldwyn:
So it's about three years until you get scouted for RuPaul. And that just completely changed your life and obviously changed your mother's acceptance of what you were doing?
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, I think in those three years she was slowly like accepting it. She didn't come to a show or anything yet until I had won Drag Race. But she was like, I think I tried to get rid of watch Drag Race and season before mine and she was kind of like, "Oh, okay." Wasn't really like, and then I got on and she was watching my season and then she came to a show, my mom and dad came to see me get crowned in here in LA. So that was cool.
Liz Goldwyn:
Were there other aspects of it that you found surprising besides this idea of having a more like typically drag body physique with the chest?
Violet Chachki:
Oh with Drag Race? Like filming?
Liz Goldwyn:
Yes.
Violet Chachki:
Oh my God. It was like by far the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life for sure. Like I wanted it so bad and it's like one of the only television shows that can really like make or break your career. All contestants have the same opportunity, the same platform, but it's really like some girls have no career afterwards, and some girls are like huge superstars. So you, it felt like a really big fight the whole time.
I felt like I was really fighting with myself and with production and like paranoid about like being perceived a certain way or like playing a game or trying to be genuine and it's like, and then trying to focus on the challenge. I can't even describe what it was. I mean it was a while ago, but I can't even describe like, you're so it's like a different universe. Like my mind like was just so hyped up on like adrenaline and caffeine and like not eating right and you can't sleep because you're thinking about these challenges and trying to be creative.
And it's like, I can't even imagine. Like I can't even try to get back into that mindset. People asked me if I'd ever go back into it again. And I'm like, it does give me like a little PTSD of like just stress. It's just so stressful. And you're trying to really showcase your craft and your artistry in an authentic way, but still be competitive and it's really hard.. I think gender nonconforming people or some of the most passionate people, like expressive and passionate people and when you put them under a pressure cooker like that especially, and they need these opportunities.
Like I needed that opportunity, I needed it and I know that I needed it. And knowing that I'm worth it and that I deserve it and all of those things and having it potentially get fucked up is like the most nerve racking experience. It was the hardest thing I've ever done for sure.
Liz Goldwyn:
So you felt like your whole career in life hinged on that?
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, and it did. I mean, and I was right. You know what I mean? Like it did a bit, you know like of course it's like whatever happens, happens for a reason or whatever. But it's like yeah, luck, luck is part of it. But like you can also create your own destiny and like I was fully prepared to like force a success story out of this. Like, that's kind of how you have to be, no matter what gets thrown at you.
Really, just like being like, "Okay, I'm going to handle it. I'm going to do it. No one's gonna stop me. Like I'm going to win."
Liz Goldwyn:
Eyes on the prize.
Violet Chachki:
Eyes on the prize. Like, I fully believed in myself and that truly this is mine. And the fact that I believe in it so hard. And that's from people who were like questioning it, or like be producers or whatever was so nerve wracking.
Liz Goldwyn:
What was it like all of a sudden having this massive fan base with a lot of young people who are looking at you as a role model?
Violet Chachki:
Oh God. It's still like, I don't know. All drag is political, and it is empowering and all of those things, of course, and it has been for me, but I never set out to be, the way I started this, I never wanted to be like a beacon of hope for anyone else. You know what I mean? Like this was, drag is my own personal like therapy. And it's like a very selfish thing to say, but it is, it's like I do what I do for me, and like that's how it's always been and it is like a form of self healing and self love and self expression.
And it's always kind of revolved around me, and not even in like a selfish way, but it like it is and it's like if someone can take something from it and that's amazing. But it's like I already have enough pressure from myself to like kind of like take care of myself using this art form that it's like a nerving bet. I don't know if a nerve is the right word, but it's like nerve wracking when people like look up to me in a certain way or like, I don't know if they expect some sort of ... I dunno, it's nerve wracking for sure to have people have young people look up to me.
And I try to be like the best role model I can be, but I never set out to do that, you know?
Liz Goldwyn:
But you've definitely used your voice in your platform to express things that you, or I guess to question the status quo, because I've heard you say that it's hard to be femme and also be quite outspoken about what you perceive as misogyny within the queer community.
Violet Chachki:
I mean it's rampant. It's like so rampant. I mean drag queens are in the gay community, celebrated like so celebrated on stage, on social media, on everything. But then when you're off stage, and you're the same person, it's like completely different like ostracized almost. You know? So it's like a really weird coin. It's like amazing, but you have to like take the bad with the good I guess.
But it's just wild to think that someone can appreciate someone's art so much. And then also, but like totally opposite. Like I've had some nasty stuff said to me like because of what I do for work. But then I mean, and then on the flip side, I've had some really amazing stuff said to me because of what I do for work. But I mean as far as like romance goes, nobody wants to date a drag queen, let's be real. Unless you're out there, call me, DM me.
Liz Goldwyn:
Unless you're listening, you can email us at info@thesexed.com and make sure you send a good headshot.
Violet Chachki:
Yes, exactly. Send your stats.
Liz Goldwyn:
Then on the other side of the coin, you've been completely embraced by the fashion community.
Violet Chachki:
Yes. Which has been, I mean like I was saying earlier, I was just scrolling through Tumblr as a kid looking at all of these images like constantly, I'm very, very visual, very visual learner and so to get to work with these people whose images I've like immortalized in my mind and I have referenced is like so surreal, so surreal. Like, I remember looking at these product ads from the early two thousands and now I'm like hanging out with the people that created, directed them, design everything, like just wild and I'm like that campaign influenced me so much or getting to work with Steven Klein and looking at all of his like fetish inspired shoots and like homo erotic photography and his huge body of work.
And then getting to like just text him if I wanted to. You know what I mean? It's wild. It's so wild that, and there's like also a mutual respect there. They have back for me and it feels almost like kind of how drag moms like the whole lineage of family and like carrying on tradition and kind of like passing the torch. It almost feels kind of like that. Like I'm almost being like conditioned to be like a part of the next generation.
Which is so cool.
Liz Goldwyn:
And then our mutual friend Dita has also passed on some of her torch to you, cause I know you're touring in the martini glass.
Violet Chachki:
I know Dita is like the eternal reference for me. Like she is such an icon to me. Like I can't even begin to, I don't even think she realizes like how much idolize her. Like I've tried to tell her, but she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm great, whatever. But like truly, truly, truly, if you would've told me at like 16 that me and her would be friends and like I'd be performing in her martini glass.
Like I would have like cried, like I would have fully like, it's so, so cool. Like I feel like I've liked submitted myself in history or something by like getting sit in the martini glass.
Liz Goldwyn:
But I think she's just as as inspired by you. I mean, no, I'm serious. I'm a real burlesque aficionado, having studied the origins of it and seeing, I saw you perform at her show summer 2017, and it was just like, Holy Shit. I mean, I've seen a lot of burlesque and a lot of drag and I was just, I think you had like the chandelier headpiece on, and it was like, holy shit, this person is referencing Erté. He's referencing all this like early-
Violet Chachki:
Zeigfield, there's a lot of stuff. And then it was like, a Lana Del Rey song, you got to, it's kind of the challenge though. It's talking about something with a modern twist.
Liz Goldwyn:
Yeah. Well, like you're scrolling through Tumblr looking at old pictures of Marlena Dietrich.
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, exactly. Well, long ago raise planning.
Liz Goldwyn:
What was it like touring in India?
Violet Chachki:
Oh my God. I'm like obsessed with India. Like I never really had like a interest that I've always been interested in Bollywood of course, cause there's like glamorous aspect, but he never thought that that would be like a country that I feel a strong connection to, until I went, and have been twice, I'm going back next month. It's just such a special place. It's a special place and there's like a historical queer culture there as well.
There's like, intersex people, Hijras and they're kind of revered as healers and as sacred people. And I think that's something super special that even just that mindset of holding people on, putting them on the pedestal, I feel like is not really carried over. It's not something that you find here in the states. So that's something that I really resonated with. But that being said, when I first went, gay sex was illegal.
And I went with my friend Keshav Siri, who brought me, who actually got a huge hand into criminalizing gay sex and the criminalization of gay sex is actually a colonial law that, so it wasn't even, it's not even like an Indian thing, it's a British thing. And so it's just silly. I mean it was just silly, but because there was that law, there is still is this stigma with people there about being gay, and about it being criminal in law.
Even when you log onto the Grindr or scruff or whatever it comes up like it did. I guess maybe it's gone now. I haven't been back on. I'll do a full report. But no, and it wasn't a huge drag community and it really is because of my friend Keshav Siri, has a chain of hotels and in a lot of the there's a club called Kitty Su, and he's actually hired a huge staff of LGBTQI plus people to work his hotels, and he throws queer parties Kitty Su, which is in the club there.
Which is where he brings a lot of drag queens and rude girls and those parties and throws events and creates a safe space for queer people to go to in India. He has hotels all over, I'm not sure all the cities. But, New Delhi, Mumbai, Goa, he has a hotel in London as well, but there's not a club there yet. I was just so well received. I mean I was just so well received and I think a lot of the queer people there like needed to see drag and cross dressing and queerness glamorized a bit and put on a pedestal and, made to be something special that should be celebrated.
I think people there, it's weird because the hugest are celebrated as like healers, but they're also like poor. They're also poorly, it's like a sacred thing, but they're almost like looked at us like thieves a bit. It's a really weird situation. So, to come there and to bring my giant rhinestone costumes and to be put on this pedestal and build this platform and say, "Yes, you know, I'm glamorous and I'm here and I was flown here to do this and I'm getting paid and I'm working and just be there." I mean, that sounds ridiculous to me.
Be like, I did that because I'm fabulous. No, but I think people just needed to see queerness in a glamorous way and no one's ever told them, that that was a possibility. You know, it's always kind of seen as like a poor person's thing. Like even in the royal family's there, there's tons of gay people in the royal families, but they don't want to come out because they would lose their inheritance. Because you'll get just inherited from the family.
Liz Goldwyn:
Did you feel pressured to blend in offstage there? More so than you would in America or Europe?
Violet Chachki:
A bit, but obviously I look like a tourist there, and people knew that. Whenever I was walking around anywhere. And of course I have like a pretty loud personal style as well, especially when in the context of someplace like India. I felt a little bit more pressure just to be respectful. I want to be respectful of where it was going. We were going to some sacred places in temples and things that just serve reverence.
I was being mindful of that. But as far as turning down my queerness, I mean you just, there's no way to, I mean, when you put me on uniforms there's just like no way to like tone it down. Yeah, I mean it's definitely important to be mindful whenever you go to any different culture. But as far as like blending in and like turning down my queerness, no, I think it was really inspiring to see the response that I got.
And now that I've been back since my initial trip, there's like a drag community there. There's like queens that performing that weren't performing, like the first time they had seen a show, a drag show was the night that I came in New Delhi, and now there's like a small network of drag queens that are working and performing in my friend Keshav's club. So he's kind of like become the pseudo drag mother to this new drag community that's kind of fostered in India.
So it's so cool to be a part of like what I want to say as like a historical birthing of a drag community in this really gorgeous, beautiful culture.
Liz Goldwyn:
I'm curious if you are revisiting any of those early Catholic school uniform references or even the mass and the smoke and the thought they have made their way into your performances or they will?
Violet Chachki:
For a while there, I was doing some sacrilegious stuff intentionally. I had like a nun number that I was doing for a while.
Liz Goldwyn:
I love the sexy nun.
Violet Chachki:
There's all latex and there was tearaways the robot. And I also had a virgin Mary number and I had like a bunch of Madonna songs. Like it was a Madonna mix, with “Like A Prayer.” All the like crazy, I had like these crazy mixes and like giant glow in the dark rosary, but I don't really do that anymore. But I could bring it back. I have the rosary still somewhere in storage.
Liz Goldwyn:
Yeah, I'm like feeling you swinging smoke-
Violet Chachki:
Well, I think it's more of a ritualistic. Yeah, I like the ritualistic aspect of it for sure.
Liz Goldwyn:
Maybe giving some communion.
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, body of Christ.
Liz Goldwyn:
If the conservatives are upset enough, you're going to take it to another level. So let's talk about your YouTube channel.
Violet Chachki:
Oh my God. I never thought in a million years that I would be a YouTuber, but here we are. Well, it's one of those things, even with podcasts, it's something about like hearing myself, hearing my voice played back has always been like a touchy subject. I guess that has to do with like queerness or being misgendered or being like made to feel like I should sound or act a certain way or like whatever it may be.
And then it's just, I dunno, I have a lot of hangups that I'm working through all of them. Of course, I'm growing up, I'm a big girl.
Liz Goldwyn:
Why is it different with YouTube and seeing yourself on Drag Race or was that just as uncomfortable for you?
Violet Chachki:
I think it was just as uncomfortable, but I think what kind of saves it is the work. So like at the end, like with the youtube video, the intros are always cringey for me. Because that's the fake part. That's the kind of like, "Hey, how's it going? So today we're going to do like Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah." But then you get to the part that's artistic and creative that I'm proud of.
And so it's like a balancing act. And so, I have to make sure that the creative is good so that I can like withstand the other stuff that is necessary, the necessary evils of production. Which is a learning experience, you know, I'm learning so much and I was learning so much on drag race as well. As far as production goes. And repeating yourself and talking in full sentences and it kind of has an inauthentic feeling at times. And I hate that.
Like I hate feeling inauthentic. I hate, like a synthetic feeling. My body, like really doesn't like lying. I'm honest to a fault and I think like that is one of my good qualities and bad qualities. I'm super, super honest. My body really doesn't react well to like me being fake about anything.
Liz Goldwyn:
How do you decide what looks to break down?
Violet Chachki:
Like for YouTube?
Liz Goldwyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Violet Chachki:
Well because before Drag Race I was really exploring my creativity and really I would do a Virgin Mary look, and I would do all this weird stuff and I would kind of break the mold of like what my signature favorite go to is. And now after Drag Race I've really had to kind of regroup and think about what my branding is and what my favorite kind of aesthetic is, what I want to really be known for.
And, and also like touring is so difficult to bring all this crazy stuff and do all these new looks all the time. So, for the past three years or so I've kind of really started to focus in on specifically what it is I want to be, what I want to look like, what I want to sound like, what my show is supposed to look like and everything. So, I've kind of lost the wider scope of creativity.
So I'm looking at YouTube as kind of me reclaiming my creativity and exploring other kinds of looks and other different techniques of makeup and really getting to play and go back to what I was referencing before. I was referencing so many different things before Drag Race, I had a wide range of references and I was just all over the place and trying to figure out what I liked and explore and all of that.
So I'm going back to that, and that's kind of what my channel's all about. That's one series. There's digital drag, which is kind of that series where I explore different aesthetics and different makeup looks and full drag looks. That's what I wanted to do, especially is give head to toe drag looks because a lot of the content on youtube is from the waist up and it's like, I hate that.
Why would you want to get, so it's been so much time making your face gorgeous and your hair and everything from here up to take it off. Don't you want to live and have a full body experience in the ritual that you just performed of your makeup? You know, I feel like it's a waste almost. I'm like, "No, we're going to be curating full looks, head to toe fashion films, full hair full makeup." Like the full fantasy.
I hate, see, I don't hate, I mean everyone can do whatever they want obviously, but it frustrates me to see people spend so much time perfecting their makeup and then the rest of the look is like not thought about at all.
Liz Goldwyn:
See, I think about my look. It actually drives Dita crazy because I rarely brush my hair. I only bought a hair dryer to two years ago. She gave me a set of hot rollers and made me sign a contract that I would practice it like twice a week for a month. But, I'm really into my clothes and my lingerie and my shoes and I spent, I'm really, I think about that. And then it's just like red lipstick and-
Violet Chachki:
That's enough?
Liz Goldwyn:
But I think she'd like it if I ... cause I don't have a lot of patience for the grooming. When I see-
Violet Chachki:
That's the thing is grooming takes a lot of time.
Liz Goldwyn:
Yeah it takes a lot of time. When I see your YouTube tutorials, I'm like fuck, "I want to look like that." I don't want my Iook to be so precise like that. But how long does that take you?
Violet Chachki:
I think I allow three hours for like new stuff and for like full fantasy stuff. And that's what Dita likes too. Fully realized fantasy, like head to toe. And that's the reason why I look up to her so much.
Liz Goldwyn:
But she can like break down the basic Dita look and, I mean she can do that in like 20 minutes.
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, I just did a 20 minute challenge where I got ready in 20 minutes. Full out the door, drag ready in 20 minutes.
Liz Goldwyn:
And so what was that look?
Violet Chachki:
Sunglasses was definitely part of it. A shake and go wig. I mean I just kind of like did the bare minimum I could do to go and be seen in public and it was pretty good. I mean I'm pretty proud of myself. Been like wanting to do like a challenge, you know? And I've done like a 20-30 minute face before for like a fashion show or something that's like 9:00 AM, you know.
Liz Goldwyn:
You've done your own makeup for a fashion show?
Violet Chachki:
Oh to go watch.
Liz Goldwyn:
Okay, to go watch. Not when I saw you on Jeremy Scott-
Violet Chachki:
Oh no, I did my own make up there.
Liz Goldwyn:
Did you?
Violet Chachki:
For sure.
Liz Goldwyn:
That was such the circus show?
Violet Chachki:
Yes. Oh my God, you were there, that's right.
Liz Goldwyn:
I filmed you and put it on my Instagram. I thought you had the best look because you had the lavender chiffon overcoat that I wanted.
Violet Chachki:
I know, I mean that was a really good, I mean that show in particular was so good. I got to see all the close up close and everything's beaded. Like I'm a sucker for heavy. Like I want to be like getting a workout while I wear clothes. Everything was beaded. It was so like precise and opulent and gorgeous and like kitschy and campy and fun.
And that's what I love about Jeremy, and the fact that he asked me to perform is like, gaggy, like so amazing. I'm so glad you were there. But I did my own face for that.
Liz Goldwyn:
Well, you didn't trust them. Who was doing the make up?
Violet Chachki:
Kabuki, which I love Kabuki and he's such a legend, and has his own drag club club kid history. But a queen's face is sacred. Because I mean, it's all creation I mean, I don't actually look like that, you know what I mean? But I've figured out the right illusions and the right tricks to make myself look like that. So it's like, if I put that face on someone else, they're going to look like me. You know what I mean? And vice versa.
Like when someone does my makeup, I just took like myself with like lashes on and it does not read the same.
Liz Goldwyn:
You're like the old movie stars.
Violet Chachki:
Yes, exactly.
Liz Goldwyn:
Like the Elizabeth Taylor and Dietrich, they all did their own makeup.
Violet Chachki:
Specific. And that's why I look up at Dita as well, because it's like-
Liz Goldwyn:
She does her own, I mean she sometimes she'll work with like Gregory Arlt, I'll come back and some people, but she definitely prefers to.
Violet Chachki:
Yeah, because you who knows your face better than you. You know what I mean, and you know what your insecurities are and what's going to combat those insecurities and make you feel beautiful. And if you don't know that about yourself, then like you probably aren't like glamor superstar, you know what I mean?
Like, and that's fine of course. But I feel like I'm truly, truly respect people that are self aware and know what they want to feel like and know what it takes to make them feel that way. And Dietrich is a really great example of that. Yanking her face back to where she bleeds. And it's like really suffering for fashion and knowing what it's going to take to get you feeling the way you need to feel to give to present yourself like that.
And I felt the same way about stylists too, celebrities that have stylists. I'm like-
Liz Goldwyn:
It's not your real look.
Violet Chachki:
I'm like, wait a second.
Liz Goldwyn:
Do you have personal style or like someone else buy that stuff for you.
Violet Chachki:
Who picks that out because it wasn't you.
Liz Goldwyn:
Yeah. Speaking of insecurity, we were just talking before we started rolling about sponcon. The Instagram sharing of products and I wonder what you feel like your position or role in all of that is and like, you know, cause in and of itself you are creating a fantasy, right?
Violet Chachki:
Exactly. I'm just now getting into the influencer space and the influencer sphere and the beauty influencer space and all of that stuff. So I'm just now starting to get more kind of deals like that and offers like that where I'm promoting products and things. And my whole thing is that it's an ad. I mean, that's literally you have to Hashtag ad and Instagram is fake. I mean, it's just like, and if you think that it's real, then that's kind of like your problem.
Like it's so fake. And I think that's what people like it. Like I posted a picture yesterday and my friend actually edited the picture and like I'm like, "This doesn't even really look like me." But people love it. People love it. And that's why people, they want the fantasy and they want kind of this escape from reality and it can be toxic. Of course, too much of anything can be bad of course.
So you have to approach things with a grain of salt and you have to realize that, look, this person's getting paid to do this. And you have to kind of realize that there's a lot, it's fake. I mean, it's like, and you have to just be realistic about it.
Liz Goldwyn:
Is there anywhere where you would draw the line?
Violet Chachki:
I mean, I think just like blatant lies. I don't know if I'd draw the line, like I think any guarantees, like if there's a product that's you drink this tea and I guarantee you to lose X, Y and Z. I'm not going to guarantee someone something. I think anything guarantee like that is like the wording is tricky and difficult. But like girl, I'm a struggling artist. If you got tea to sell and you want me to sell it and you got lots of coins, I'll saw your tea.
Like I don't give a fuck bitch. If you want me to sell your fucking like I don't care ginseng pills like send me an email girl. Like I need the money, I'm an artist, I'm trying to make my art, trying to make my work and if I have to capitalize on that to get by and to make myself happy and, and like post an ad which is fully advertised and as an ad, then that's kind of what my perspective is on it.
And I would like that. I think more brands are feeling a little bit like into the drag thing. But it's such a hard sell to get people to back a drag artist, and it still is. I mean like you were saying before it's, you kind of have to have like a very marketable persona and it's hard and it's like, especially being into burlesque and fetish, it's like, and it's frustrating when I see people who are not creative or not as talented as I think I am or whatever, getting opportunities are getting brand deals are getting, sponsorships or getting support. It is frustrating.
Liz Goldwyn:
Other people within drag or?
Violet Chachki:
In general or just influencers like people rich girls that take pictures of themselves wearing, you know, designer handbags or whatever at like cafes in Paris. I'm like, "Okay, well why is this bitch getting a Dior like makeup sponsorship? She's literally already rich, A, and B, she's not doing anything, and C, like I could really use this money to broaden my horizons, broaden my scope to people that I'm influencing.
There's like, again, we're going back to the children looking up to me, whatever we could like make it about whatever we wanted to make it about. But there's people out there that could really use sponsorships, and really use brand deals, and really use the funding to promote change and promote positivity. So it is frustrating. So if you have product to sell, like hit me up.
That's circling back to the team.
Liz Goldwyn:
Circling back to the tummy tea. Well, I mean beauty is a construct, right? Gender is a construct, beauties is a construct.
Violet Chachki:
And that's the whole point of drag is both of those ideals is like this whole thing is fake. It's all fake. So just have fun. Like beauty doesn't exist, it's created in the eye of the beholder. I mean, I think is beautiful was like red pouty lips and a snatch waist and some girls think of ... whatever they think is beautiful, but-
Liz Goldwyn:
I got the red pouty lips. I don't have—
Violet Chachki:
We'll work on it. But it is, it's all created and gender is constructed. And because the construct, and that's kind of like at the heart of what drag is, is that. And if, it's like that's kind of the message is that it's all fake and it's all identity is a joke and you just need to have fun with that.
Liz Goldwyn:
So I just have one last question for you for now is that, what are you still learning about sex?
Violet Chachki:
Oh God, I'm learning. This is a loaded question. This is such a loaded question, how are you going to aim this one? Am I still learning? I'm learning how to compromise I guess. I think is like the best answer I could give right now. I don't know. I think we're at a weird time with sex in general. I think people say statistically speaking, are having way less sex. And it kinda sucks because I met, at a point in my life where I feel like I'm going into my prime.
I don't know if that's the right word, but I want to be having like my fantasy sex life, right? Of course everyone does. But I think the internet kind of fucked it up. So, and I'm a child of the Internet.
Liz Goldwyn:
Why for you has it fucked it up?
Violet Chachki:
Well, I just think the apps in general have ruined it. Have ruined cruising culture for sure, in the gay sphere. I think people are constantly being inundated with options, so they feel like there's no need to really feel strongly about something or jump on something or kind of commit to anything because there's always going to be another swipe right. You know what I mean? There's always going to be another person to like judge or whatever.
But that being said, nothing ever concrete really happens. And so, I mean, so I guess it makes the interactions that do happen and the sexual experiences that to happen a bit more special. I think that this has been my experience, but of course I'm traveling all over the world, and a famous drag queen. So my experience is very different from a lot of people's. So I'm trying to learn to compromise and to rationalize and to I don't know. Yeah, that's it. That's where I'm at.
Liz Goldwyn:
That's an okay place to be.
Well, thank you so much.
Violet Chachki:
Thank you so much for me, I feel like I just had a therapy session. I feel great.
Liz Goldwyn:
That'll be $500.
Violet Chachki:
Seriously, thank you so much.