Rebecca Sugar: Wholesome LGBTQ+ Animation
Podcast Transcript Season 2 Episode 33
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Illustration BY Black Women Animate
On the podcast this week is Rebecca Sugar-animator, writer, musician and creator of the groundbreaking animated series Steven Universe. Rebecca is the first non-male in Cartoon Network history to create their own series, which featured the first ever engagement and wedding between same-sex characters. In this episode, Rebecca and Liz discuss the importance of making wholesome LGBTQ+ content; their role in educating children—and their parents—via entertainment; the censorship an internationally syndicated animated kid’s show faces, and the upcoming Steven Universe: The Movie, out September 2.
The following is a transcript of the interview from the episode:
Liz:
Thank you for being here with me today.
Rebecca Sugar:
Absolutely.
Liz:
So I'm curious what your favorite cartoons were as a kid.
Rebecca Sugar:
That's a really difficult question because I loved so many cartoons. I grew up watching a lot of classic old cartoons, like the Fleischer Superman cartoons, Popeye, Betty Boop, Looney Tunes. My dad had a bunch of Looney Tunes on laser disc. And he also had this laser disc of, and that really dates it, of Canadian animation, like NFB shorts, which I was completely obsessed with. A lot of those are really beautiful. And then I watched Totoro a million times. I had a tape of it. Anything I could really get my hands on that was animated, I would just devour.
Liz:
So how do you get from the path of a kid loving cartoons, and especially old cartoons, almost like Vaudeville era cartoons, to becoming the first non-male in Cartoon Network history to have their own show, and at a young age?
Rebecca Sugar:
It was my dream. I had dreamed of having an animated show, and I had noticed that a lot of people at the time, in the late nineties, a lot of shows I loved ... I really loved Invader Zim, and the creator of that show was also an independent comic artist. And then through that I started discovering, around when I was maybe 14, independent comics. And then I just started devouring any independent comics I could get my hands on. So I started doing underground comics, and I would print them, and sort of staple them, and take them to local comic conventions. And I was really lucky because I grew up in Maryland right by the Small Press Expo where a ton of independent comic artists would come with their Xeroxed zines, and I would trade.
So I started doing comics. I went to school for animation, but I kept doing comics on the side. And then I really got into the industry because people who worked on Adventure Time were familiar my comics and some of my short films. And so I got a test, a storyboard test which I took, and then I ended up doing revisions for that show. I mean I went the route of, I started as revisionist. I became a writer/storyboard artist. And then people started to notice my writing at Cartoon Network, and they asked for me to pitch. And I was really surprised because I had always thought, "Oh I really want to work in the industry, but my personal work is probably always going to have to be underground comics because I would like to do really interesting things." And that's a place where no one can stop you from doing interesting things because you're just doing everything yourself, and printing it yourself, and just you can do anything.
But I found when I was working on Adventure Time that I was writing stuff that was even more personal than my independent comics, like Pen and Adam and Pat on that show would really encourage people to be super sincere in their writing. And a lot of us were from the world of independent comics, so we were just doing our thing and that show. So once I had an opportunity to make my own show, I was like, "I can't pull any punches. I want to make something really, really personal." But also because I love sort of cartoony commercial cartoons, I wanted to do that. I wanted to do both. I wanted to make something that was fun and cartoony and commercial, but also making a statement on what those cartoons were, and like finding my home in that that I had never had, bridging that gap between the things I thought I'd only be able to say in the form of underground comics and the things that I loved in truly commercial entertainment.
Liz:
Yeah. I think the world of comics and animation is so amazing because it's almost like fairytales, right? You get to deal with these themes of good and evil, and light and dark, and often a lot of subject matter that is really hard to approach in live action. It somehow makes it more friendly. And even through animation and comics, we can look at the polarity in ourselves.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah. I actually think in animation, but also in fantasy, I feel like the way that light and dark is approached is really harmful. One of the things I wanted to do from the very beginning on Steven is that dark never equals bad. And the enemies get lighter and lighter until they're just light. And the protagonists ... Ultimately when Obsidian is fighting White Diamond, dark is profoundly ... Dark on Steven Universe is profoundly good.
Liz:
Well we all have light and dark in ourselves, right?
Rebecca Sugar:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Liz:
It's that yin yang. I think it's interesting. We've created all these structures to define people and emotions, and it's really just a process of reconciling. And Steven is even, he represents this kind of polarity too because he's literally Earth and alien.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah, duality.
Liz:
And he's based on your brother.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yes.
Liz:
Did you always know you wanted to make him a character?
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah. Well, I had been drawing drawings of my brothers since we were little kids. We drew comics together. And when I was in college working on various film ideas, I would just always doodle him. I had my shorthand for him, and I would do little animations of him also when I was in school. When I started pitching, I was really thinking about, "What is something that I could devote years and years and years of my life to? If this goes, I might be working on this for a very long time, so what is ... Is there a character that I will never not love?" And that's why I chose my brother because I knew that, not only had I been drawing him forever, so I could continue to draw him forever, but I would always love to explore this character that would be inspired by him. And we were working on the show together. So a lot of the stories about Steven sort of supporting the Gems when they're going through something difficult was actually playing out in reality because running the show was extremely difficult, and he was there to support me through it. He was our lead background designer.
Liz:
Wow, that's pretty cool, to be able to work with your family.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah, and it's very much what we'd always been doing. I was always sort of more of a character drawer when I was younger. And he would do these incredible ... He would draw Star Wars ships. He just has this knack for perspective and for sort of structural drawing, where I'd be really sort of loose. So to have him define this world ... He's also an amazing at world-building. He's also a great writer. And so we were kind of coming up with the characters and the world simultaneously. As he was drawing the world, I was drawing the characters.
Liz:
I'm really interested in the Gems because they don't have any sort of human gender constructs. They're non-binary, right?
Rebecca Sugar:
Yes, absolutely.
Liz:
In the future world that you envision, In the space of animation or if we bring in the idea of artificial intelligence, do you think that's where we're moving is beyond the binary?
Rebecca Sugar:
This is something that I think is so fascinating. A lot of times when I hear people start to discuss non-binary identities, it somehow comes with this idea that non-binariness is going to remove the gender binary. I actually really like the term gender expansive. I don't think we're moving away. We may be moving away from the gender binary, but that's not going ... How do I explain this? There will be more, and there won't be less. I almost think that it's like ... Did you ever see-
Liz:
It's not going to obliterate.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yes. No, it's going to expand.
Liz:
It's going to expand.
Rebecca Sugar:
And you see, it reminds me of ... You know when you see dated movies about the future, and everyone wears nothing but like silver spandex? And it's like, "Oh right, in the future, we won't wear clothes anymore. We'll all wear like full body suits, and everyone will be the same in this new future way." I love the more ... Did you ever watch like Cowboy Bebop or now Carolyn Tuesday, Shinichirō Watanabe's vision of the future? Where it's people will still wear overalls in a hundred or a thousand ... Things that are now, won't go away. They may be reinterpreted. We're still doing things and wearing things and saying things that come from a thousand years ago and a hundred years ago in new context. And I think that that's just ... Now that I've gotten to know more people who are gender expansive and connect with this community, I've really come to understand that this is not about crushing anything that currently exists.
I mean there are people who personally may prefer not to associate with genders that exist currently, but that doesn't mean that they're going to be eradicated from existence. This has to be about expanding everyone's understanding of what's possible, combining and contrasting and working with the semiotics of gender that exist in ways that are playful and exciting. And what I love personally as someone who is pretty fluid is that all of these ideas that exist, all of these gender constructs that exist could be fun and playful and exciting if they could be rearranged and deconstructed and reconstructed, as opposed to the idea that the future will mean that everything is eradicated.
Liz:
I agree with you. It's expansiveness and tolerance, but what an amazing opportunity that you've been given to kind of preach that message to kids using cartoons in this way that feels very natural.
Rebecca Sugar:
Oh yeah.
Liz:
You love the characters, and then you have Ruby and Sapphire who are two Gems that are female presenting, and that was a historic moment in cartoon history probably, right?
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah. Yes.
Liz:
The first engagement and wedding.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yes.
Liz:
And then you just, it's just very ... You already have this audience that's following along and in love with these characters and are rooting for them, without all of the politics onscreen.
Rebecca Sugar:
I think what's been exciting with working with this show and these characters is that I've enjoyed being able to sort of reinterpret struggles, personal struggles, through the lens of the Sci-Fi fantasy action comedy world. So the problems that Ruby and Sapphire face are, not a one-to-one, but very related to struggles that I've experienced, but having that distance, being able to do it as a cartoon and being able to celebrate them. It's a very personal self-expression, especially those characters. And I had so many goals for them. They were really designed to be, to prove that a gender expansive ... They're also coded as an interracial couple, that they make sense. And you get to know Garnet, and you get to love Garnett, and then you understand them from the get go because you understand why they work as Garnet's sort of, quote unquote, 'parents' so to speak. You already have been rooting for them; you just didn't even realize it. I wanted it to be like you know and love this couple like they're your friends. And I really wanted them to be super iconic.
When you look at, say, Mickey and Minnie Mouse, what you're seeing is two characters that are the same, except gendered male and female. One has eyelashes and a bow. The other is the default form. And together, they're an iconic cartoon couple. And you see this over and over again. That's sort of the cartoon shorthand for a couple. So Ruby and Sapphire wanted to say, "Here's a couple where they're sort of the same and different in all the opposite ways. They're a same sex couple, but they are so different, but they make sense together. They make just as much sense together as any other iconic cartoon couple does, and you root for them. And they're adorable also. It was really critical for them to be just powerfully wholesome together. Although, they have their moments in certain episodes where they get to be pretty cheeky with each other. But yeah, I could talk about Ruby and Sapphire all day.
Liz:
I love that you use the phrase powerfully wholesome. Because to me or you what is powerfully wholesome in the sort of bubble sometimes that we get to live in is very different once you, especially when you're making content for children, once you take it out of that and you release it to the world. And we know that conservative groups, anti-LGBTQ+ groups have a lot of trouble when you deal with anything regarding sexual and gender identity and children. I'm curious, was there another end of the spectrum in terms of reaction to, in particular that episode?
Rebecca Sugar:
Of course, always for them, but ... Well, the wholesomeness idea and expressing the way that they're wholesome, I felt an urgency to figure out how to do it because there has been no wholesomely ... We have been restricted from making wholesome LGBTQ content, all ages content. When I was starting to do this work in 2010, 2011, this was not something that was possible to do. If you can't make anything to show that it's possible to make this as wholesome content, wholesome all ages content, if you actively are barred from making it, then how can you prove that it can be done? You're never even given an opportunity. So with them, from the beginning, it was a long, long, long process of, "How can I make this just so undeniably sweet and wholesome-"
Liz:
And G-rated.
Rebecca Sugar:
And G-rated. A lot of times that was the bar, "This can't be included in G-rated content." And it started to really come into focus for me that that was the problem. The idea that there's something inherently more adult about a same sex relationship is the root of this bigotry. Children are inundated with heterosexual content constantly, constantly. And it's this ... It's the same. It's stories of attraction and stories of love. I have a little sort of thought experiment that I would do when I started to sort of realize, when I started to see the road that I was navigating more and more clearly, I would think about Snow White and Sleeping Beauty, these really ... What someone would consider a wholesome image of, like the prince kissing Snow White. This is a moment where it's like, "Snow White is a corpse."
Liz:
Yeah, she's not giving consent.
Rebecca Sugar:
She's a passive princess. It's not a consensual kiss. This is a kiss that's appropriate for children. In 2010, we were absolutely not allowed to show a same sex kiss, but also I think this is a kiss that's appropriate for children to see. This is a kiss that's considered wholesome. And I would start to think, if you changed this equation, at what point would it cease to be wholesome? If Snow White is also a prince, does it cease to be wholesome? If the prince is unconscious and Snow White kisses the prince, does that cease to be wholesome? And not just cease to be wholesome, but I would sort of think, "When does it become, quote unquote, 'funny?' When does it become edgy? When does it become for points? And why does your brain switch from this this heteronormative kiss being wholesome to funny or edgy or for points? When does that happen? Why does that happen? How do I stop thinking that those things are changing, and how could I create a context where someone else watching would understand the wholesomeness of the new type of interaction?"
If Snow White is awake and she says, "Kiss me," and he kisses her, does that become less wholesome? I think that the portrait, the nexus of wholesomeness, being the chasedness of a woman and the proactiveness of a man, how does that shift to the wholesomeness of a relationship being based on mutual respect, being based on communication? And we explore that all the time in various ways on Steven. Stevonnie is an example also of ... Well, Steven and Connie as a relationship, Stevonnie as an individual, Garnet as an individual, Ruby and Sapphire as a relationship, also the things that don't work about Pearl and Rose's relationship in contrast to what does work about Ruby and Sapphire's relationship. We're really trying to discuss, not only communication and respect, but also the kind of breakdowns that can occur from an extreme power imbalance. Those were some of my goals for the show.
Liz:
When you think that we know that children ... As children, we develop a strong sense of our sexual and gender identity by the time we're seven, which is prime cartoon, animation watching years. And I think back to ... I also, I loved Betty Boop as a kid. Pepé Le Pew, who, looking back, was a very aggressive skunk. He was always trying to kiss women without their permission.
Rebecca Sugar:
Oh yeah.
Liz:
And then of course there's the whole myth of the Disney princess and that we need someone to come and save us. You know, that once Snow White and the prince shack up in the castle, then that's the end of the story. We know then.
Rebecca Sugar:
Right.
Liz:
So you're talking about bringing messages of communication and consent and wholesomeness into this children content, so it kind of puts you in a position of basically helping parents talk to their children about these difficult subjects that we know parents have trouble addressing with their kids. What's that experience been like?
Rebecca Sugar:
Right. Oh my gosh. Well, when I'm at conventions, my favorite part of coming to conventions is the signings because that's when I get to actually talk to people one at a time. And I've gotten to meet parents, parents of tweens and teens that watch the show together and kids. Parents that, they'll be like, "This is my daughter. She's in the queer youth program at her high school." I'll just be like, "Oh my gosh, and you're here together." It makes me so emotional. And the way that they'll talk about the show together. And the thing is that parents have had so much material, heteronormative material, to allow them to chat with their kids about their budding feelings. There's just been a complete deficit of anything else for parents of children who are not those children to be able to have a relationship with their kids. And it's honestly just so sad to think that only certain kids get to chat with their parents about love or about how they're feeling. And I really, I think personally experienced that as a kid. I was just given so much, so many opportunities to understand what it meant when I had feelings for boys. And when I had feelings for girls, I had just no context and no idea how to talk about it.
And I also had no, nothing to like, to just say, "Oh. Me as an individual, I just like this show," or, "I just like this ... " Actually, I did, but it was Japanese. And it was more when I was a little older that I discovered animes where I could say, "I like this." But even that, I sort of wasn't sure, and I understood that it was mature. I think that knowing that there were certain ... I was very afraid of my own feelings that I had as a kid that I knew I wasn't supposed to be having. And I didn't really-
Liz:
Who told you, you weren't supposed to be having them?
Rebecca Sugar:
It was not direct. And this is something, actually this ties into like the parents I get to speak to at cons. When I started ... I told people I was bisexual when I was 13, 14. I knew. And the reaction, the general reaction from just about everyone, was that, "That that doesn't matter," or, "How do you know?" or, "Whoever you end up with, you end up with." And so I very soon just stopped talking about it because it didn't feel good to be told over and over again that I didn't really know what I was talking about. Or I got the message that people ... When you say, "Oh that doesn't matter," it's like, "Oh, then I guess it doesn't matter, so I won't talk about it, or I won't put a label on it." And I became one of those people that was like, "Who cares about labels?" Also, because bisexual and non-binary, and I didn't even really know that that was a thing. I didn't really have a word yet for how I was feeling about my own gender. I think at the time, I just felt like I wasn't good at being a woman, and I wasn't really gay, which is a very negative ... Everything I'm describing is a thing that I'm not, which is not fun, so I just stopped talking about it.
And I met someone. I was at the Small Press Expo, which is my hometown con. I came back, which was so fun, like for the first time in so, so many years. I used to go there, because it's in Maryland. And I met this parent, this dad of ... who was coming through the line, getting something signed for his daughter. And he said, "We've talked about the show. We've bonded so much over the show. My daughter's really figuring herself out, and she's going through a really rough time, and the show is so helpful for her." And I go, "Oh that's so great!" I'm like, "This modern world, it's so wonderful." When I was young, mostly what I was told was, "Oh that doesn't matter. You can be with ... Whoever you end up with is who you end up with. Being told over and over again that it doesn't matter, it seems like a kindness, but it's really unhelpful." And I watched him just go pale. And he says, "That's what I've been saying to my daughter."
He's like, "What should I do? What should I say? What do I do?" I go, "Well look, when you say it doesn't matter, you're approaching it within the context that it's bad. The idea that it doesn't matter only makes you feel better if you think you're starting in the red." So I said, "If your daughter's having feelings for someone, ask what she likes about them." What you say to someone who's like, "I have my first crush"? Do you say, "That doesn't matter"? Why would you say that doesn't matter? Obviously it matters a lot. And also to say, "Whoever you end up with is fine," is a minefield, especially if you're a kid who is not ... if you're bisexual, if you're queer, if you're pan and you're told, "Well, just wait and see who you end up with," All of a sudden your entire identity hinges on a relationship, and you may rush into experiences you're not ready to have, just so that someone will tell you who you are because you need ... You're being told you need another person to tell you that. That's so dangerous.
And I just sort of begged, "Just let her talk, and listen, and just be excited that she's having this experience, that she's growing up." And it was amazing. He was so moved. And then a couple hours later, as I was leaving, I saw him with his daughter, and he just looked at me. He smiled, and he introduced her. And I could just tell that things were suddenly going to be different, and I wished then that I could tell just every parent ... I think the toughest thing is that I know that these parents, they want to be there for their kids. And you want to have a relationship with your kid.
There are certainly parents that become a brick wall and say, "This is not okay," and that is just so devastating. But for the parents that want to be supportive, I wish there was more material for them to bond with their kids over, and I wish that there was more information, also for I think partners of bisexual or pan or queer people. There's basically no information about how to let someone talk about that, but there is a lot of fear of dating someone, a lot of really difficult ideas about how someone might be untrustworthy or will never be satisfied, just really difficult things that make it so hard to talk to your partner about this as well. That's a different conversation, but that's the kind of thing that I think parents, kids, everyone, humans should just be aware of, if that's going to ... You don't want someone to just not be able to talk about a big part of who they are.
Liz:
Yeah. And I think that there's this ... Well, one, none of us are given guidebooks, right? About how to handle this, any of this. And it's already such an uncomfortable topic that parents are told like, "Oh, I'm not going to approach these ideas with my children until they're of age." Well, I'm sorry. By the time that you think they're of age, they've already gotten a lot of information.
Rebecca Sugar:
Right.
Liz:
And then the other thing is this idea of fluidity and our sexuality constantly evolving. It's like we want, so quickly, to like make it okay, make it better, and just skate over this part of being confused and being in transition and questioning who and what we are. And that's ... That's okay. Uncertainty is fine. It's an okay state to be in. It's not possible to have all the answers.
Rebecca Sugar:
Right. Yes, it's okay to be confused. I think the idea that there will ever be some sort of crystal clarity on anything is almost a sort of form of denial. I mean we're all sort of navigating this world together that is ever shifting. And the idea that people aren't putting it out there, that it's okay to be confused or okay to be in a state of perpetual maintenance of yourself and relearning who you are all the time. I mean, everyone's doing that, but I think a lot of narratives, it's really satisfying and comforting to think that the conclusion will be some sort of clarity.
Liz:
Or that there'll be a conclusion.
Rebecca Sugar:
Or that there'll be a conclusion at all. Yeah.
As a storyteller, it's been interesting to try and explore some of that, and still create satisfying narratives without sort of arriving at conclusions that are familiar buttons that say, "This story is done." One of the things I love about Ruby and Sapphire getting married is that they've been together for 5,750 years. Usually at the end of these movies, it's like they met like three days before and were both attractive people, and now they're married, and that's the end. It's also just exciting to say, "This is a really long term relationship."
Liz:
Literally.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah, and it'll continue to be. And they're still ... You've seen them, their dynamic change even in the time you've been watching the show. And it's going to change some more, but they're going to go through it together. That's the kind of relationship I'm really interested in exploring.
Liz:
Because Steven Universe is shown internationally, how you navigate that in terms of censorship of what's okay and what's not okay to talk about?
Rebecca Sugar:
Right. Well it's a challenge that's faced... that every sort of animated, well a lot of animated shows for kids face because we are producing this content for internationally to be dubbed into all these different languages. I can't necessarily control how the script changes when it's dubbed. And so you have other languages where the dialogue has been changed. Say when Ruby and Sapphire are playing baseball and Sapphire says, "I want to look at you," they change it to, "I have trouble concentrating," things like... little things that are sad, but also bigger things, episodes that are pulled. But I think part of the challenge is that because we're making this for international, for these other countries, we're often held to the notes from those countries. So we're not just limited by American homophobia, but also intense, dangerous, critical homophobia from other countries where in some cases Steven Universe has been entirely pulled.
Liz:
Where have you been entirely pulled?
Rebecca Sugar:
We used to be the number one Cartoon Network show in South Africa. I believe they don't show us at all anymore. There are other countries with really strict standards about this. Malaysia for example. There are a lot... and a lot of cases dubs are made in one place that cover a larger region. There are places, like the censorship that's happening in Malaysia, will then define how the show is aired in many, many other countries nearby. But I think what's difficult about this is that not only the censorship is awful, but to avoid that censorship, it's brought to us to say like don't... if we do this, it's going to be a problem because of these countries, so just don't do it at all. I would way rather actually do it and then have it be caught or pulled then to not do it in order to avoid it being cut or pulled. And I think that in a way it's really important to see how and where it's being modified.
And when I grew up, I watched Sailor Moon. There were characters that were supposed to be cousins that were clearly in a relationship with each other and I knew that. And I think that's something also growing up, I mean to be so aware that I lived in a country where they would do that. That changed my experience growing up. I hope that people will be able to find the show uncut in its entirety. But the other thing I hope, the thing I really, really hope is that other content creators, other people making children's animation will not censor their work in order to have it be played more broadly. Actually, that was a really difficult decision for me because I wanted the show to be accessible to kids in places that needed it the most. And for a while our metaphors were loose enough to allow that to continue to happen. And this also, I couldn't... I was in a position where I couldn't tell the truth about myself because these other countries would see and that was so-
Liz:
Offline as a creator, like in the press or?
Rebecca Sugar:
In the press. When people would ask, why are you doing this? If I were to say I'm doing this because it's personal to me that would be it. That was going to be it. These countries would know. Everyone would know exactly what it was and then I would risk it being pulled in those places and ultimately I just couldn't stop not... It was unsustainable to keep skirting that line. My mental health was really plummeting and the years I spent not being able to say this is a personal story because I'm bisexual, it was awful. I felt terrible.
So ultimately, I had to tell the truth, but I am really concerned about the places that now will not air the show. I mean, I've plenty of reasons to be concerned about the places that won't air it. I'm worried about the people there in general, but at a certain point, if the show is popular enough, they want a piece of it and then hopefully it'll be aired again. That's the other thing is to be able to prove that this is wholesome content. That this is-
Liz:
Wholesome capitalist content.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yes. Which is, that's also a real big moral quandary is, oh, can greed surpass big chains. It's like, really? What a horrible equation. But I try to reroute it in my mind to say that just the power of honest human stories maybe is bigger than all of those things.
Liz:
What can you tease for us about the movie?
Rebecca Sugar:
I mean the movie is a dream come true for me because I love musicals. And before we started it, I was marathoning all these musicals I'd never seen before, just just taking notes on what makes musicals great. So I don't want to say anything to spoil the story, but there are musical types of songs always dreamed of writing that I finally got to write for this because it's just such a musically musical. That was the most challenging and the most rewarding, the most exciting thing. And we just pulled out all the stops. We worked so hard on every aspect of it, so I think you'll see all the nights and weekends on the screen.
Liz:
Do you play the ukulele in any musical numbers in the film?
Rebecca Sugar:
Actually I've been ... Teen Steven plays the guitar, and I've been also. I've started playing guitar. Two years ago, I started playing guitar. And so there's a little more guitar now, bigger Steven, bigger instrument.
Liz:
I just have one more question for you that I like to ask every guest because everyone has a different answer. What are you still learning about sex?
Rebecca Sugar:
I mean, there's so much always to learn. The more I'm able to be comfortable in my own skin, it's like a whole new world opens up. I feel like there will always be, at least right now it feels like there's so much to learn and explore because I've changed so much. And I think my changing becomes part of a change in my relationship, becomes part of a change in every aspect of our relationship. So I'm excited to just constantly reconnect with myself and with my partner in new ways. Yeah.
Liz:
So you're learning how to be comfortable?
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah, basically.
Liz:
How do you arrive at that? Or what would you tell kids who are in that stage? Would you say, "Hey, guess what? It's like 20-something years later, and I'm still trying to figure out how to be comfortable"?
Rebecca Sugar:
I mean if I were speaking to kids in terms of my past self, I would say, "Don't do anything you don't want to do. Don't do anything you don't want to do." And you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. But what you want comes from self-exploration and being comfortable with yourself is really ... can be really difficult, especially if you've been told for a long time that how you feel doesn't matter, or that you aren't what you think you are. It just becomes really difficult to enjoy getting in touch with yourself when you've been told things like that. So I would say, just as fast as possible, "Shut that kind of rhetoric out and look inward, and don't be scared of what you find there. Whatever you want, you deserve it, so go ahead and explore what you want first. Know what you want. Know what you don't want, and don't do anything you don't want, and pursue the things you do want."
Liz:
I think that's good advice for anyone listening at any age, no matter where they're at on their sexual or gender identity journey.
Rebecca Sugar:
Yeah.
Liz:
Well, thank you so much.
Rebecca Sugar:
Thank you.