Lykke Li: Motherhood, Love & Creating Art from Pain
Podcast Transcript Season 2 Episode 34
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Illustration BY Black Women Animate
This week’s podcast guest Lykke Li is a singer, songwriter, mother and co-owner of Yola Mezcal. She has been on tour supporting her record SO SAD SO SEXY and follow-up EP, STILL SAD STILL SEXY, which came out in 2018 and 2019. Lykke and Liz talk about creating art from pain; motherhood in the music business; why she’s over music festivals and how her personal definitions of love have evolved.
The following is a transcript of the interview from the episode:
Liz:
Thank you so much for being here with me today.
Lykke Li:
Thank you.
Liz:
We were just talking before we started about what your schedule has been lately because you've been touring all summer. How do you create some sort of grounding or balance when you're on the road?
Lykke Li:
You really don't. You just have to shut your eyes and jump in and then it's hard. The first shows feel good but then towards the end you're like, "I'm never doing this again. I cannot get on another plane and I cannot be away fro my son and I cannot stand in this shitty trailer ..."
Also, festivals, it's really hard. It's always somewhere in the middle of nowhere. You drive through the rain and there's a little tent that's like leaking and there's no toilets. It's hardcore. Yeah. I think I'm getting to the end of that era.
Liz:
Yeah, you're feeling those days are behind you for now?
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
Unless you have a big cushy bus?
Lykke Li:
Exactly. Yeah, which I don't.
Liz:
What does it take to get to that place where ... Do you have to be like Taylor Swift now?
Lykke Li:
Yeah. You have to headline the whole festival and be the main act. Yeah.
Liz:
It's a big business, being a female artist.
Lykke Li:
It is.
Liz:
When you got into it who were sort of the big icons when you first started out?
Lykke Li:
I didn't really ... Career-wise, I didn't really have an icon to look up to. You know, I think Nina Simone was the best or Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Shangri-Las, Lauryn Hill, anyone but I would never look at someone's career and think, "I'm going to do the same thing." It was more who touches me and who doesn't? Then when you start out it's like you just have to figure it out while you're going.
Liz:
I was really interested in the title of your last album So Sad So Sexy.
Lykke Li:
Yes.
Liz:
Do you think that you have to be in pain to create the best art?
Lykke Li:
I don't think you have to be in pain but when I reflected on my own life and career and what led me here I've definitely only created from pain and pain comes to me in different forms and that's when I create the most. I don't know if it's by choice or if it's just how it is.
Liz:
Yeah. There's a certain definition that songs have when you're going through heartbreak, right?
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
You can listen to an album on repeat or a song on repeat and sometimes it can be hard to access those deep emotions when everything is kind of even and life is good.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Especially I think when writing lyrics. Especially in the area of love. When I'm in a difficult situation it's so hard for me to understand, "Why is this happening? What's going on?" The only way I can understand it is by examining it. That's when I write really is to understand it.
Liz:
You don't write when you're happy in love?
Lykke Li:
No, because then you're like drunk or stoned in bed. No time for writing.
Liz:
To me, coming from Hollywood where #MeToo has really swept the rug clean, sort of, where people are afraid to say certain things. There's task forces like Time's Up setup to create equitable positions of power by 2020. Then you look at the music business and you see very infrequent cases. Why hasn't that happened?
Lykke Li:
I don't know. I just got back from Sweden and there it definitely happened. There the music industry a lot of the people that I crossed paths with when I was young - they are gone. There it really was very organized and it happened.
I don't know why it didn't happen in America necessarily. Maybe because also there is ... I feel a lot of the biggest stars musically are women. They are in power somehow. Of course, there's so many who are not but maybe there's something about that.
Liz:
So many of the biggest stars are women but what about behind the scenes?
Lykke Li:
Exactly.
Liz:
Like in executive positions and ...
Lykke Li:
No, it's very problematic. For example, when I go on tour I have a female tour manager and that's kind of unheard of. We come across that all the time. Like the way that the crew at the places talk to her ... I mean, me too. We're suffering all of us still.
Liz:
Even for you as a mother it's not exactly setup for maternity leave.
Lykke Li:
No.
Liz:
Is there a stigma attached to taking time out to have a child when you're at the height of your career?
Lykke Li:
Yeah. For sure. I think in my case, especially on this last album, I was out of my album cycle before I made this one. I was out of my deal. Then, you know, when it was time for me to come back everyone was like, "You've been gone for four years." You know? In pop music that's an eternity. It's like, "Good luck."
For me, four years is like, dude, I made a baby, I had a baby, I fed a baby, and I wrote an album. That's pretty fast. I don't know what to say. It's super complicated.
Liz:
What would ... I mean, in your ideal world what would change on the business side of it?
Lykke Li:
I mean, I think we just have to keep doing it. I was really scared having a baby. Especially growing up you look at all the big music icons like Stevie Nicks or this and that. People, they didn't have a baby or Joni Mitchell gave away her baby. I always thought that you had to choose or you have to become a Patti Smith and have your babies and be gone for 10 years. It's an unmarked territory.
For me, I think you just have to have the baby. Like really try to figure it out while you're doing it. I'm still experimenting. Like how many shows can I do? What can I do? Of course, I'm saying no to way more but I also think it's important as just an exercise to actually have a baby and still do it.
Liz:
You recommended that book Motherhood to me by Sheila Heti, which I love because it's conflicted.
Lykke Li:
That book was like listening to my own head. Yeah. I've shared it with so many of my friends who have kids too. Everything she says in the book it's true. The positive sides and the negative sides. There's nothing ... No choice is the right choice. It's so double-edged. The pros is a whole new world opens up to you and in some ways you get to meet your true love but then the down sides is your whole life is taken away from you.
I mean, even today I'm still so tired. It takes away such a big part of your fire and your energy and you're tired forever. You're not a free agent anymore.
Liz:
But you're almost not allowed to say these things. It's pretty radical. I think we don't allow mothers to say things like, "I'm fucking frustrated", "I'm depressed".
Lykke Li:
I don't know. For me, in Sweden, that's all we talk about. I think maybe Sweden is more open like that. For me, it's like all my friends have babies and we sit and have a glass of wine and just talk about how hard it is and how exhausted we are and how we wish, "Damn, we should have partied more." You know? Yeah. That's how we talk about it. I think here maybe it's a bit different. Also because there's no maternity leave. In Sweden you have all that.
Liz:
How long is the maternity leave there?
Lykke Li:
It can be up to two years if you want.
Liz:
Oh, wow.
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
You're not allowed to fire someone who is pregnant. You can actually have a life and a career and a kid there.
Liz:
This idea that as a woman you have to have a career, be a mother, give yourself time, give your creation time, be sexy, be desirable to your partner, maintain a relationship. Those are all heavy expectations.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. I only manage to do maybe two things of those. The rest I did not. I think one thing that can be frustrating about your art is when you think how much time it takes to become really at your top level. You know, the 10,000 hours or 100,000 hours that you have to spend perfecting your art and vision. That is gone. That is a big injustice I feel. A man can just keep going. He can be in the studio until five in the morning and do whatever he wants but I can't. I have to go home.
Liz:
But then maybe it makes you spend your time more wisely?
Lykke Li:
Yeah but it's still a question. Like how great can I be? It's a philosophical question. In some ways, I am so much better so I don't know. Like something happened to me too after I had a baby. I unleashed something.
Liz:
What did you unleash?
Lykke Li:
I don't give a shit anymore. I'm not scared anymore. For me, it's like I do it because I love it and I give it a go and if it doesn't work out or if people don't like it I do not care at all.
Liz:
You were thinking more about audience reaction?
Lykke Li:
Or people or ... I just thought I sucked the whole time. I was like always looking at other people and thinking like, "Man, I'm the worst." Now it's like I don't care about anyone else. If I want to say something I'm going to say it or if I want to dance ... I don't want to be a perfectionist anymore. It's kind of freeing. Yeah. It's a privilege now to be able to ... Even now I dance for two hours and it's beautiful instead of doing it for 12 hours.
Liz:
You have a successful career. You own a mezcal company Yola.
Lykke Li:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Liz:
What made you start that?
Lykke Li:
Well, that was just pure accident. This was maybe five, six years ago after a big heartbreak. I was living with my best friend Gina. We had rented this house in Laurel Canyon that we called Heartbreak Hotel.
It was a time of discovery. I went down to Mexico City on a whim. Ended up at this house party. I was super tired and didn't really want to drink and everyone was going out to this club super late. Then this gorgeous woman came up to me and her name was Yola and she was like, "Why don't you just have some mezcal?"
Then I had a lot of mezcal and then we went to this bar and also someone slipped an E in my drink. I kind of had a spiritual awakening. I felt great. In the morning, I woke up and I had brunch with Yola, a new friend, and I was like, "Oh, I have to email my friend Gina because she said to email me when you're down there because I know people there."
I'm sitting with Yola who I had just met the night before and then I email Gina and she replies and she says, "Oh, you have to meet this girl Yola." I'm like, "Oh my God. I'm sitting with her. This is amazing."
Then Yola started talking about ... I asked her, "The mezcal was incredible. What was that?" Then she said, "Oh, it's my mezcal that I do at my farm in Oaxaca" that she inherited from her grandfather. Yola is a big feminist and a lesbian. Her whole thing was that she wanted to give women economic independence in Oaxaca so she only hires women.
I went down there and I was just so blown away by her and the farm and the women. Then I thought we should take this to America and we should call it Yola and it should be a strong drink for a strong woman. Then we just started doing it from there. Like smuggling mezcal, throwing parties. Gina would cook and I would sing and then we just kept going.
Liz:
You're going to have the first Yola Dia in a few days, which is an all-female led music festival.
Lykke Li:
Yes.
Liz:
It's an amazing lineup.
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
You think about alcohol and music festivals can potentially be a disastrous mix but you're kind of creating a whole different way of looking at that.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Also, our product is very ethical and we give back to the community and I like to have a good time so if you're going to be drinking I do believe in drinking something natural and it gives you a really nice high too. It's a love juice.
Liz:
It's a love juice.
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
How did you come up with creating the music festival? Where did that come from?
Lykke Li:
Well, we've kind of been doing that on a very small scale for a few years. We would be in a house or someone would sing, cook, drink, and there would be some type of activist angle. The opportunity kind of came to us and then the stars aligned and we went for it.
Liz:
I think a lot of women feel unsafe at music festivals.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Exactly. That's why we have all-female security guards to bring the vibe right.
Liz:
I think I've only ever seen you like this offstage, real casual, but you have, especially for this tour, this sort of wet sexy, sci-fi, latex, power image onstage.
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
Was that like armor? What goes into that?
Lykke Li:
Yeah. For sure. As you see, I'm personally pretty shy and barely put any clothes or makeup on. When I go onstage it's my opportunity to feel stronger than I am or I feel. It's definitely going into character and creating some type of shield so you don't take in ... I don't let anything get to me when I'm onstage. I need a protective barrier and a character.
Liz:
What's the character for this round?
Lykke Li:
So Sad So Sexy. Like strong and vulnerable and she's been out in the rain in a trench coat.
Liz:
In a latex trench coat.
Lykke Li:
In a latex trench coat.
Liz:
And latex thigh-high boots.
Lykke Li:
Exactly. Yeah.
Liz:
She's playing with some of those very key BDSM, dominatrix ...
Lykke Li:
I don't know if it's that for me honestly. For me, it's more like space, psychedelic. It's more about creating something onstage that's so shiny and otherworldly. For me, I don't really ... I'm not that inspired by sex. Yeah.
Liz:
But it's So Sad So Sexy.
Lykke Li:
Exactly but it's my version of what sexy is and I think for me I've never tapped into that source or angle. I've never been interested in that somehow. On this round, I think especially after having a baby I made peace with my body and then all of a sudden I realize like, "Ooh, I think I'm a woman now. I'm not a girl anymore." I felt somehow strong and good about it and sexy in my own way. Just for myself.
Liz:
You made peace with your own body but you were a dancer for years.
Lykke Li:
Yeah but I was anorexic from like 15 to 19. It was horrible.
Liz:
How did you get past that?
Lykke Li:
I got past that because I think ... I mean, I didn't go that deep into it but I think I kind of thought myself through it. Like, "This is ridiculous. People don't have food to eat. I can't be putting my energy on this. I have to liberate myself from this insanity." I kind of just snapped out of it.
Sexy, for me, is just someone who accepts themselves and is comfortable in their own body. Whatever that means. I am a little scared about the American version of sexy where it's so much about changing your body and extra this, extra that. There's not much naturalness to it anymore, but then again who am I to judge that? It's cultural I guess.
Liz:
Maybe it's culture but I think it's also come ... In terms of parenting it's like we teach kids from such an early age to have so much shame around their body.
That must be something you think about, raising a little boy.
Lykke Li:
Yeah but he's still in the phase where he's completely free and naked most of the time. I really just let him be naked and free.
Liz:
I mean, isn't that like the best state to be? How do we keep that sense of total acceptance of your body and your sexuality without putting all of these restrictions on it?
Lykke Li:
I mean, I think, for example, I grew up very much like that because I'm Swedish and I grew up in Portugal. I was naked until I was like 10 on the beach.
Then I think it's media is what comes in and fucks with you. Ideals in magazines and movies and all of that. I do know that that's totally what fucked with my head. Like looking at a Vogue magazine and feeling so not pretty anymore when you used to feel free and non-judgemental. I think it's really that, no? Media.
Liz:
Yeah but then those sort of traditional spaces like Vogue or whatever aren't the ones defining what's fashionable anymore. That is what the interesting space we're in now is that it's not one Conde Nast dictating, "This is what beautiful is."
Lykke Li:
I know but now it's Instagram and now it's Kardashian has taken over the world so now it's even crazier, no?
Liz:
Yeah. How do you interact with that ... The things that you have to do as a business person? As an artist? You have to maintain some sort of social media presence or engagement in that way.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. It's very tricky. It's something I'm still working on. Sometimes I take breaks and I don't go on it and then that makes me feel really good. Then sometimes I'm on it and I just get sucked into some loop of looking at other people and how they look and how happy they and et cetera. That makes me feel really bad. I'm not sure.
Liz:
Compare and despair.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Exactly.
Lykke Li:
And aging? That's a whole other thing that we all have to deal with too.
Liz:
Are you afraid of it?
Lykke Li:
No. It's more that ... It's strange that it's the same thing as in death. There's no preparation for it. I suppose it's supposed to be like a spiritual practice of acceptance, right? And self-love. No, I'm still deciding or figuring out how I'm supposed to deal with that. How do you feel about it?
Liz:
I feel like when I turned 40 I felt ... I had this vision of myself standing on the edge of a cliff overlooking the Pacific, taking in all that power of the ocean with two glowing orbs, one in each of my hands.
I really felt like I was coming into my power, but then when I was 13, I wanted to be 40. I always thought, "When I'm 40 that's going to be this magical time for me as a woman." I think I do feel much more in my power and sexually I feel much more confident than in my twenties or thirties. I feel like I know myself and my body. I feel excited for 60 and 80.
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
I can't imagine being in a career that's public-facing like yours where you're also playing with all that projection of like ... Look at someone like Madonna.
Lykke Li:
No, it's very complicated. There's not many ideals ... There's not many women over 40 who have not gone under the knife in the public eye. That's super tricky. How do you deal with that?
Liz:
I think it's personal, right? If someone doesn't feel good about themselves and they want to get things done that's okay. For me, personally, I like my wrinkles and I'm psyched to go full silver.
Lykke Li:
You know, when you think of a woman you think of someone in their ... Like a rose in their prime, you know? A fresh apple. Most of the time, no?
Liz:
Maybe but then we think of men like fine wine.
Lykke Li:
Exactly. Yeah. How do we change that? It's so old and mythical.
Liz:
I think one thing is to normalize ... It's like talk about it. You brought up death. People are really freaked out about death too. I think we just don't want to talk about things that we're scared of. If we don't normalize it it can be harder to go through ... People really fight it. Not just physically.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Spiritually.
Liz:
Spiritually.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. I'm excited to see how I can become a heightened spiritual person in my sixties.
Liz:
In your sixties? Are you going to join a monastery or go on a silent retreat?
Lykke Li:
No, more like I want to be in a house with all my women and just drink and take MDMA.
Liz:
Have a feminist collective?
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Have a good time. Yeah. You know, I love older people who are on their feet, fit. Not fit because they want to look good but they're actually strong.
Liz:
What are you learning now about sex?
Lykke Li:
I feel so much better about sex and I enjoy sex so much more now than I did before. I think it's a really important force that you have to connect to. It's really one of those places where you're in the zone. It's like as important as meditating. I feel very much like sex is ... When I'm onstage I feel like I'm having sex with myself. I'm in the zone. I think it's an important part of your life.
Liz:
Are you having sex with yourself or the audience? Or is it like you're channeling that energy?
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Maybe I'm having sex with the combined energy of everything.
Liz:
Yeah. I like to think of sex not as an act necessarily with another person or even penetration or even orgasm but as an energy.
Lykke Li:
Yeah. Like a heightened state of liberation.
Liz:
What does love look like for you now? Like the concept of love.
Lykke Li:
That's something that I've really, really dove into this year. I feel like this is the year where I finally reconceptualize what love is. I'm totally disillusioned by what I thought love was and what it could be. I'm very much in that discovery process about what love is. I've kind of come to an end of …
I realize what I thought love was for so many years was from such a young place. Like the whole prince, romantic, savior, fill every hole in you place and I was also so starved and I also made so many illusions about what it was. That's something that I'm rediscovering what it is right now. Like what is it? Is it a feeling? Is it a choice? Is it a place? Is it a person? I don't know.
Liz:
Then there's relationships.
Lykke Li:
Oh, God. Yeah.
Liz:
Is it possible for one person to give us all those things?
Lykke Li:
No. I don't think so. Not at all. No.
Liz:
That's a choice?
Lykke Li:
Yeah, but I thought before, maybe when I was younger that love is just such a strong feeling of ecstasy and you're in the mood 24/7 but that only lasts for a little bit and then it's really a choice to you choose to love another person through their flaws and yourself. Then it's more like a ... Yeah. A lifestyle. I don't know. I am totally lost.
Liz:
I think most of us are.
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
Yeah. We have all these high expectations of a partner these days. I think in the 1950s we did not expect ... I mean, obviously relationships and love had a super heteronormative construct and now we want someone else to be our therapist and our best friend and our lover and a parent and all these things.
Lykke Li:
I actually had my ex over for dinner last night and we were talking about how if you don't need something, if you're not dependent on the other person for something, economic or you have a kid or this or that, then what is love? Then love almost has no choice of surviving.
I think that's where we are now. We don't really need much from another ... I'm independent, I have my own house, I have a kid, I have my work, I have my friends. I just need them to be this mythical spiritual but then the minute it doesn't feel like that you can just leave and you would still have ... You're not losing your home. It's not up until now that I even am scratching on what it means to love yourself. Before I was like, "What are you talking about?" When people would say like, "Love yourself." I'm like, "What do you mean?" Yeah. It's an interesting place to be.
Liz:
That's super hard. You can't just say love yourself and then like, "Okay."
Lykke Li:
Yeah.
Liz:
You have so many years to undo.
Lykke Li:
So many years and so many illusions of what love is.
Liz:
Thank you.
Lykke Li:
Thank you.